Le Rochefort by Tonphil1960 - 1/36 - POF

[Tonphil1960]

Le Rochefort POF scratch. 

[Tonphil1960]

This is my second POF project. I also did a Blandford section last year. This is quite a project I see already. I’m still at the beginning stages. I’m going to use the Hahn method (attempt it anyway) but just for the frames. I’ll build the hull in the normal shipyard style. Progress so far. Keel bow and stern axial timbers and made and fitted. I’m waiting for my frame wood before I mill out the rising wood and continue. I’m working in the stern timbers now. I’ve been following Mark’s “No Idea’s” build since he started. I don’t expect to get near that quality but in the end I’ll still have a model I can be proud of. 

[Tonphil1960]

The past two days work. Made two wing transoms one from one piece of cherry one from 2 pcs of beech. During the forming process I ended up just going too thin for it liking. Made another today thicker and also made the other transom pieces. The plan is to mill the keelson and rising wood and get the axial structure all cut and fit. Then move into the frames since I gave my lumber now. 

[No Idea]

At last a fellow builder 👍

 

The wing transom is tricky and it looks like you've got it sorted.  Keep the ones that didn't make the cut as they will be very handy when you build a jig to build the counter timbers.  Keep going mate - it's a small ship but very particular when it comes to accuracy.  If I can help just let me know    Oh and by the way if you need answers to any questions drop Gerard a message as he has helped me understand his drawings.   

 

I only can build between work so you will probably be finished before me.

[Tonphil1960]

13 hours ago, No Idea said:

At last a fellow builder 👍

 

The wing transom is tricky and it looks like you've got it sorted.  Keep the ones that didn't make the cut as they will be very handy when you build a jig to build the counter timbers.  Keep going mate - it's a small ship but very particular when it comes to accuracy.  If I can help just let me know    Oh and by the way if you need answers to any questions drop Gerard a message as he has helped me understand his drawings.   

 

I only can build between work so you will probably be finished before me.

Thanks Mark yes indeed.   If I can build just moderately close to your accuracy and fitment Ill be a happy camper.  Its going to be slow going because like you there will be many parts that will get made several times to get them right.  Your photos are so good they explain a lot that the plan and Adrian's book don't.  Your build is priceless for reference. 

[Tonphil1960]

Milling progress. Going slow and steady. Made a few new parts for the bow and stern as the ones I made just weren’t right. 

[Tonphil1960]

Making progress. Frame blanks are cut and sanded. I’ll be putting those together shortly. 

[Tonphil1960]

Managed to get the frame blanks glued up. Next to cut them all out. 

[No Idea]

Good progress there mate and I've not seen the frames on this ship made in Hahn style before.  What are you going to use as the datum to make sure that the floor and half floor sides line up?  I'm sure that it can be done but I would leave loads of excess wood on the frames to make sure that the hull can be faired inside and out.  Good luck and I hope that you and yours have a great xmas and a happy new year  

[Tonphil1960]

Thanks Mark.  I just made four different size  frame blanks to fit the different frames one for the floor side and one for the other. Im

not sure even that was necessary.    I’ll glue them together and cut them out that way. The joints are close on some to where they should be and not close on others. I understand that with the Hahn method we’re not trying to match the plan’s joints. We’re just trying to make frames out of multiple pieces as in the real ones.  I’m new to this like you !  

You too, have a great holiday !  Tony 

[mtaylor]

Doing the full Hahn method on frames would get close on the joint alignment.  His plans usually show 2-4 planks the are shaped to be close to the final cut.   But what you're doing works well also.

[Tonphil1960]

Yes right. The joints aren't a major concern with this method. I hope anyway. 

[Tonphil1960]

Rough cut the frames. Ended up

making a new No20 as it just didn’t make it. 
mill get the keel assy. going further now. 

[No Idea]

Wow that's some major progress there in such a short time.  I think the Hahn process may work out well for you

 

One question though - how are you going to cut the floor and half floor recesses for the rising wood now that the frames are glued together?

 

Or are you thinking about altering the rising wood instead?  I think this would be the easier option?

[Tonphil1960]

I’m not sure. I was thinking about milling as far as possible and cutting the rest by hand. I don’t know how it’s “supposed” to happen the Hahn way. Possibly I shouldn’t have glued the frames together ?  I guess I could just make the joint however is easiest for me too and not worry about accuracy in the joints as long as it’s clean.

I’m really not sure at all. I have a lot of analysis to do. 

[No Idea]

Hi mate - when I raised my frames I realised just how important accuracy of the frames were.  But also the fit onto the rising wood because this determines the accuracy of the final build.  Accumulative error is a real problem when raising the frames as if each one is 0.2mm out by the time 32 frames are raised the whole frame is 6.4mm out of kilter.

 

I think that you can do both versions of what you suggest.  Either cut them by mill and hand or make the rising wood flat and just simply mill out each side of the frame the same.  I'm sure that someone must have made these frames the Hahn way before who can give some advice too.

[dvm27]

There are several Hahn style jigs wherein the height of the top timbers and the mortises for the floors are accounted for. I suspect his version may be depicted in Ships of the American Revolution.

[Tonphil1960]

1 hour ago, dvm27 said:

There are several Hahn style jigs wherein the height of the top timbers and the mortises for the floors are accounted for. I suspect his version may be depicted in Ships of the American Revolution.

I’m not using acHahn jig just his frame building method. 

[Tonphil1960]

1 hour ago, No Idea said:

Hi mate - when I raised my frames I realised just how important accuracy of the frames were.  But also the fit onto the rising wood because this determines the accuracy of the final build.  Accumulative error is a real problem when raising the frames as if each one is 0.2mm out by the time 32 frames are raised the whole frame is 6.4mm out of kilter.

 

I think that you can do both versions of what you suggest.  Either cut them by mill and hand or make the rising wood flat and just simply mill out each side of the frame the same.  I'm sure that someone must have made these frames the Hahn way before who can give some advice too.

I’ll have to make a few frames just the bottom section and see how milling and finishing by hand goes. Yes understood tolerance creep adds up fast. I haven’t run into anyone doing Rochefort frames the Hahn way. Haven’t seen how anyone treated the floor and half floor side either. 

[dvm27]

I'm not well versed on French construction practice but I note that all the frames still have a small mortise on the bottom to fit onto the rising wood. I would suggest using a jig with a rising wood block to fit the mortises to. Once you achieve a good fit you trim the toptimbers to a parallel toptimber line above. As well, use a centerline to make sure the distance between toptimbers is the same. I used a jig similar to this when building my frames as you did: http://www.modelshipbuilder.com/e107_images/custom/hahn/h_hahn_2.pdf

 

I believe building upright is easier than the Hahn method so long as your building board is correctly marked out. You've made a great start.

[Tonphil1960]

Thanks Greg, yes ill have to build a jig and cut the mortices and fit each frame. I'm going to also make a few bottom frame sections as I said to see how to go about cutting the two different sized mortises on the floor and half floor frames. One thing I did not pay attention to is where my frame joints actually fall on each frame. they're not in the same positions as the plans. Some are on or very close but some are just where they fell due to how I cut my blanks. It wasn't an issue in my mind and I'm not sure if I should keep it this way or not. I really don't want to make up new blanks and cut new frames out at this point. Strategically placed planks might be my answer but I really didn't intend to plank at all except for the wales and possibly a few down at the keel. I have some testing to do now. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Tonphil1960

[Tonphil1960]

Progress. I’ve spent a lot of time working on the axial parts and stern. I made a second set of stern fillers and a fourth wing transom as the first just weren’t right. The transom isn’t glued up yet. I’m using black paper for the keel caulking because I like its look. I may make new rising wood to make it easier to fit my Hahn style built double frames unless I can figure out an easy way to mill two different sized slots on either side of bottom of the doubles frames. 

[Tonphil1960]

Question on the Hahn method. I’ve been looking but haven’t found out how do the bottoms of the frames get where they fit the rising wood. 
On the Rochefort the floor and half floor have different slots to fit over both the thinner slots and full size width of the rising wood.
Putting the frames together as I did (glueing both frame blanks together before cutting) with that method doesn’t leave much possibility of milling out those slots. I did so one but I just can’t see myself doing then all that way.

What I am doing now “right or wrong” at this point is I installed a solid piece of rising wood only where the square frames are from 5 to 25. The frame slots I will cut will now fit over it. I think I’ll have to do the keelson too this way. Haven’t really looked into it yet though. Maybe make a new keelson with properly sized slots to fit my frames.  Opinions needed please. Thanks Tony 

[No Idea]

Hi Tony I think that this is your call mate.  The great thing about having an accurately made rising floor and frames that fit into the floor and half floor is that it makes rising them a lot easier.  I'm not saying that it's an easy thing to do but it certainly helps with the spacing and placement of the frames.

 

I think that your quest to simplify this process is actually causing you some real issues.  I still think that with patience your idea will definitely work - but what about the chocked frames at the stem and stern?  That would involve another level of ingenuity and if wrong will affect the relationship between the frames and the transom and hawse timbers.

 

These are just my very limited thoughts and I hope you get it sorted but Gerard didn't make these plans with Hahn in mind.  I have no doubt that someone on here will either have a solution or some other ideas to help you.  Good luck mate  

[Tonphil1960]

Right. I'm not trying to simplify the process. I cant see any other way to do it using Hahn frames. I can make new rising wood to fit my frames and a new keelson the same. they will have slots for the frames. I'm trying to understand this. As soon as we go to the Hahn method were taking away accuracy of framing. If my frames are notched to fit over the rising wood and the keelson is notched to fit over the tops why is that an issue ?  I really don't see it.  Thanks Tony

 

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Tonphil1960

[No Idea]

Hi Tony - Hahn's method of framing removes the historical accuracy of the build as I understand it.  He used a stylised method that made the frames seem evenly spaced to the eye which was not how ships were actually built.  His method also extended the frame top timbers which became the datum and as such the ship hulls were built upside down.  It also means that the builder does not have to make and align all of the individual pieces that constitute tandem frames.

 

His ships are quite simply amazing as is his method  - what I was trying to say is that you are using historically accurate drawings by Ancre to build a ship using Hahn's method.  I would have no idea (no pun intended) how to even do this and cannot help you on your quest to achieve your goal.  Adrian Sorolla shows very clearly how to build the frames as per Ancre's plans and that's the way that I have build my model.  

 

My thoughts were that you have put in a lot of time and effort so far......so you could use these skills one of two ways.  Either go with what you are building but no one has done this before on this ship as far as I am aware or build it to the plans.  If I have upset you with my comments then I apologise as I would not intend to do this to any builder.  I meant what I said good luck with your build and I do believe that what you want to do can be achieved  - I just don't have the skills to advise you.

[Tonphil1960]

Oh yes I understand. I’m just looking for opinions and answers. No offense taken at all. You are right. Accuracy of frame connections aren’t there with this method. I see it this way. The only change I am making is in the frame to keel connections and the joints of the frames of course aren’t in the plans position. No  measurements or part positions have changed or will change. I am only using that framing method, the rest I will be built as per the plans. Either way I’m thus far and don’t want to start over so all I can do is carry on and do it the best I can.  I wish someone that knows more than you or I will pitch in here ! Thanks Mark 

[mtaylor]

As I understand this, you have frames using the Hahn method but are not using the build board method, right?   The Hahn framing method gives you idealized frames and spacing.  Seems what your doing is really not the Hahn method as far as installing the framing but only as far as the making of those frames and their spacing.   I think that's what your doing....      As for the top timbers... sanding once the framing is done will fix any issues and will need to be done.

 

I'd say carry on.   Hahn did his framing really for one reason... his cutouts to show interior detail through the exposted frames along with some gain in building speed.  It's basically a modified POB with the "B" part being frame shaped.  When I look at your photos in post #22, I don't see a problem.  Are those all the frames or are there more to be cut and made?    As I see it, you will need to do some fitting and shaping and all the usual sanding to fair the hull inside and out.  

 

 

[Tonphil1960]

Exactly not even the frame spacing, that’s staying as per plan.  I’m only using his frame building method of making blanks out of 5 pieces glueing them together and cutting out both twinned frames at  once so there are actual joints as opposed to what you described. I have all the frames cut I just need to sand the remainder.  That and I’m changing the way the frames are connected at the keel and I’m making a new keelson to fit my frames on the top side. The rising frames in the stern since I do still have slotted rising wood there I’ll mill to fit that rising wood. As long as my spacing and frame height in on the money as per plans I don’t see a problem either.  Thanks Tony 

[Tonphil1960]

Managed to get the rest if the frames sanded. Made a new keelson too which I’ll slot to fit my frames after they’re set temporarily.