Boccherini Posted February 2, 2023 Share #1 Posted February 2, 2023 Whilst playing around with a shroud pair to see how it looked/worked out, I noticed a several problems with the mizzen top. The main issue: how will someone get onto the top from underneath? There are no futtock shrouds, because the top mast has no shrouds according to the rigging drawing. Do I remove the planking and leave the crosstrees? Or cut an access hole through the planking? Or something else? There is no detail for this in the plans. I haven't been able to find a reference in Underhill's "Masting & Rigging. Doesn't mean it isn't there, I may have missed it. Suggestions are most welcome. Regards, Grant. mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBlack Posted February 2, 2023 Share #2 Posted February 2, 2023 (edited) The mizzen has no shrouds? Hard to believe. Tom Edited February 2, 2023 by TBlack mtaylor and Mark P 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccoyle Posted February 2, 2023 Share #3 Posted February 2, 2023 19 minutes ago, Boccherini said: Suggestions are most welcome. First suggestion: Make the title of your post something other than "oops" -- you'll be far more likely to get an answer to your question. I fixed this one for you -- no charge! 😉 Boccherini and mtaylor 2 Quote Chris Coyle Greer, South Carolina When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk. - Tuco Current builds: Brigantine Phoenix, Hawker Hurricane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanyed Posted February 2, 2023 Share #4 Posted February 2, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Boccherini said: here is no detail for this in the plans Hi Grant What ship, year, nationality? By the way, Luigi Boccherini's Celebrated Minuet in cello concerto No. 9 is one of my favorite classical pieces. Allan Edited February 2, 2023 by allanyed mtaylor 1 Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted February 2, 2023 Share #5 Posted February 2, 2023 The only reason to have a top there at all is to spread the base of the topmast shrouds. There must be an omission on your rigging plan. Regards, Henry mtaylor and Mark P 2 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted February 2, 2023 Share #6 Posted February 2, 2023 Or… was rhere a top, or just a kind of spreader? There were no shroulds mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwiederrich Posted February 2, 2023 Share #7 Posted February 2, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, TBlack said: The mizzen has no shrouds? Hard to believe. Tom 2 hours ago, TBlack said: The mizzen has no shrouds? Hard to believe. Tom He said no futtock shrouds...the means to climb up and over the top from the lower shrouds to the top shrouds... And no topmast shrouds from the tops...Weird. I think the addition of the tops should be eliminated and only cross trees are required. Still you need shrouds to access above the tree. Weird...again. Rob Edited February 2, 2023 by rwiederrich mtaylor 1 Quote Current build: Build log: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25382-glory-of-the-seas-medium-clipper-1869-by-rwiederrich-196 Finished build: Build log: of 1/128th Great Republic: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13740-great-republic-by-rwiederrich-four-masted-extreme-clipper-1853/# Current build(On hold): Build log: 1/96 Donald McKay:http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4522-donald-mckay-medium-clipper-by-rwiederrich-1855/ Completed build: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/gallery/album/475-196-cutty-sark-plastic/ The LORD said, "See, I have set (them) aside...with skills of all kinds, to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver, and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of crafts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted February 2, 2023 Share #8 Posted February 2, 2023 Still, the question remains. A spreader for what? There would be no reason to install a spreader there if it has no purpose. Regards, Henry mtaylor 1 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwiederrich Posted February 2, 2023 Share #9 Posted February 2, 2023 Possibly the term *spreader* is being utilized to describe the cross tree.....? Rob mtaylor 1 Quote Current build: Build log: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25382-glory-of-the-seas-medium-clipper-1869-by-rwiederrich-196 Finished build: Build log: of 1/128th Great Republic: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13740-great-republic-by-rwiederrich-four-masted-extreme-clipper-1853/# Current build(On hold): Build log: 1/96 Donald McKay:http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4522-donald-mckay-medium-clipper-by-rwiederrich-1855/ Completed build: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/gallery/album/475-196-cutty-sark-plastic/ The LORD said, "See, I have set (them) aside...with skills of all kinds, to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver, and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of crafts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted February 2, 2023 Share #10 Posted February 2, 2023 Crosstree, thanks, that was the word I was looking for… but the ship is the Harriet McGregor, and I cant’t find sny pics of her (or any model of her) showing a mizzen top with shrouds. At least not with enough shrouds to have a full set of futtock shroulds, or ratlines to the top of the mizzen mast. Hence my question whether the top as shown on the model is correct Jan mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted February 3, 2023 Share #11 Posted February 3, 2023 I found some pictures at the State Library of South Australia of the Harriet McGregor. The photos are not very good but a couple of them seem to show mizzen topmast shrouds. And if they had shrouds there would have to be futtock shrouds to carry the force back in to the mast. Also, I found a photo of a painting of the ship that shows mizzen topmast shrouds. I know that a painting is not necessarily a definitive source, but it is out there. Harold Underhill, in Masting and Rigging the Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier, has shrouds and futtocks for barque and barquentine fore and aft masts. Personally, I feel that there has to be something there to counter the sideways forces from the sail. Regards, Henry mtaylor and TBlack 2 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Lad Posted February 3, 2023 Share #12 Posted February 3, 2023 This photograph of 'Harriet McGregor' alongside at Hobart clearly shows a spreader with a single topmast shroud. John mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boccherini Posted February 3, 2023 Author Share #13 Posted February 3, 2023 Chris, thanks for the intervention. Allan, 1860, Harriet McGregor. Boccherini, an underappreciated composer. His guitar quintets grabbed my attention, particularly this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgEaS_d6qUE . I'll have a listen to the "Celebrated Minuet in cello concerto No. 9" Amateur, that picture has a very similar mizzen set up as my plan (which shows no clear detail of the top). I now know that my top, taken from "Masting & Rigging", may not be correct for the ship. Henry, I forgot I had this picture from the Hobart Maritime Museum (?), which seems (possibly), to show a pair of crosstrees/spreaders with shrouds terminating half way up the mast and futtock shrouds connecting onto the main shrouds part way down. Is this the painting you are referring to: Rob, Thanks for your input. My rigging plan also shows no spanker boom guys, yet "Masting and Rigging" includes them in the description of rigging for spanker booms. The book also describes the boom sheets as having 2 blocks, my plan shows only one. Harriet McGregor was a small ship, 330 tons for memory, would this explain the rigging oddities? Regards, Grant. mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boccherini Posted February 3, 2023 Author Share #14 Posted February 3, 2023 John, thanks for the photo. it shows some differences from Underhill's drawings. Different point of time in the her life? I have squinted very hard at the far side of the mizzen top / top mast. There seems to be a pair of shrouds with ratlines, not 100% sure though. Regards, Grant. mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanyed Posted February 3, 2023 Share #15 Posted February 3, 2023 6 hours ago, Boccherini said: Celebrated Minuet in cello concerto No. 9" Hi Grant, Sorry to have taken the string off track....I just listened to the Fandango, it is great, thanks for the tip! Also - String quintet in E Op.11, No. 5 Very familiar melody. Allan mtaylor 1 Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boccherini Posted February 3, 2023 Author Share #16 Posted February 3, 2023 John, I've had a closer, magnified look at the picture, I suspect you're right about the 1 spreader/crosstree. Late middle age eyesight often sees what it wants to see. Would the spreader would be fore or aft of the mast? Rectifying the error should be fun. Thanks again for your help. Allan, no worries. I'll get to your recommendations over the weekend. Regards, Grant. allanyed and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted February 3, 2023 Share #17 Posted February 3, 2023 Here is the painting I mentioned. mtaylor and Snug Harbor Johnny 2 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Lad Posted February 3, 2023 Share #18 Posted February 3, 2023 Grant, this is a much-zoomed detail of the mizzen mast. The spreader appears to be on a collar around the mast and to be centred on the mast. If you save the image and then open it, right click and hit 'zoom to fit', you should get a reasonably clear full screen size image to study. John mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boccherini Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share #19 Posted February 4, 2023 Thanks Henry. Great painting. Mr. Green had an eye for detail. John, thanks for that, I can't enlarge it much. It starts to pixelate (right word?). I can't imagine the spreader being a single piece of metal poking out from the collar, probably wouldn't be strong enough. A "T" section spreader? Any thoughts? Regards, Grant. mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted February 4, 2023 Share #20 Posted February 4, 2023 According to Underhill, the tops for the mizzen, or other fore and aft rigged masts, were constructed the same as the Fore and Main tops. They are essentially platforms nailed on top of the usual trestle trees and cross trees. On the Fore and Main there were fitted additional spreaders to take the backstays, but the mizzen often did not have spreaders fitted. Sometimes, the platform itself was omitted from the mizzen top leaving only the cross trees to lead the futtock plates through. Regards, Henry mtaylor 1 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Lad Posted February 4, 2023 Share #21 Posted February 4, 2023 Grant, it's difficult to be sure, but it looks like a simple round or square bar section. remember it's only taking compression forces as it 'spreads' the shrouds. John mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boccherini Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share #22 Posted February 5, 2023 Henry & John, thanks for your contributions. Time to decide how to tackle this & do it. Thanks again, Grant. mtaylor and Jim Lad 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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