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double line/rope


jastrząb

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Hello Friends,

 

I need your help. Look at the ropes 62. Why are they doubled????? How to attach them to the belaying pin? Any comments?

 

 

post-5602-0-06571900-1385228923_thumb.jpg

post-5602-0-36607400-1385228928_thumb.jpg

post-5602-0-23585600-1385228967_thumb.jpg

Paweł

 

 

Current build: HMS Pandora: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/3409-hms-pandora-by-jastrz%C4%85b-constructo-185/

 

 

 

Finished projects:

Roar Ege 1:25, Billing Boats

Albatros 1:55, Constructo

Santa Maria 1:50, Mantua

 

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One end is fixed (the end without the arrow), in this case to another yard.  The other end goes to the belaying pin.  There are two with the same number, one the port and one to the starboard.  Same line, but on different sides.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Jastrzab?,

 

I don't know the model, Santa Maria or Pinta perhaps, but the lines you are referring to are the spritsail sheets. These are normally doubled because they run through a single block at the clews (lower corners) of the sail. One end of the sheet is probably made fast to an eyebolt on the bow of the ship, and from there runs out through the block on the sail and returns, being made fast to a belaying pin (62?) in the pinrail in the bows.

 

The usual method of fastening it off, is to pass it around the bottom of the pin under the rail (from the side of the strain), run it vertically up over the rail and around the top of the pin. From there you run it down again, this time passing it across the pin to its other side, round behind the pin under the rail to the other side. You will see that a figure of eight pattern is beginning to emerge. Continue in this way for three or four turns, finishing off round the top of the pin. You can cut off the line here and hold it with a spot of glue, but leave a little end for fastening the separate coil.

 

Hope this helps.

Kester

 

Current builds: Sherbourne (Caldercraft) scale – 1/64th;

 

Statsraad Lehmkuhl (half model) 1/8th" – 1'.

 

Victory Bow Section (Panart/Mantua) scale – 1/78th  (on hold).

 

Previous build: Bluenose ll (Billings) scale – 1/100th.

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My Dear Friends!!! (Mark and Kester)

 

Thanks a lot for your support! I was thinking about an eyebolt, however, it was not mentioned in the sketches of the ship (Santa Maria). I will stick to the eyebolt.

 

 

One end is fixed (the end without the arrow), in this case to another yard.  The other end goes to the belaying pin

I can't visualise it Mark :( What do you mean by another yard?)

 

Anyway you help me a lot :)

 

Let's stay in contact,

 

Regards,

Paweł

Paweł

 

 

Current build: HMS Pandora: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/3409-hms-pandora-by-jastrz%C4%85b-constructo-185/

 

 

 

Finished projects:

Roar Ege 1:25, Billing Boats

Albatros 1:55, Constructo

Santa Maria 1:50, Mantua

 

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Pawel,

 

Ok, glad you understood, and I'm sure we can help out again.

Edited by Stockholm tar

Kester

 

Current builds: Sherbourne (Caldercraft) scale – 1/64th;

 

Statsraad Lehmkuhl (half model) 1/8th" – 1'.

 

Victory Bow Section (Panart/Mantua) scale – 1/78th  (on hold).

 

Previous build: Bluenose ll (Billings) scale – 1/100th.

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The drawing looks like the fixed end goes to a yard or the mast behind it.  I'd follow Kester's advice on it though. 

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Perhaps if you think of it another way, it might help.

The line you are referring to is a 'sheet' (one on each side of the sail) and is used to control the forward propulsion this sail provides to the ship. Hence, there can be a lot of force on these lines.

 

By having two lines going through a block the force that a sailor would have to handle is cut in half. In this case one end is attached to some solid structure (a spar for example), it then goes through a block (at the corner of the sail) and the other end (the one with the arrow) is the one the sailor handles and belays to a pin or cleat.

 

The other lines, such as number 61, are used to furl the sail. All they do is haul the sail up when no longer wanted or needed. The force to do that is relatively small. Hence no double lines are needed for that.

Edited by Modeler12

Jay

 

Current build Cross Section USS Constitution  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/10120-cross-section-forward-area-of-the-uss-constitution/

Finished USS Constitution:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/103-uss-constitution-by-modeler12/

 

'A picture is worth a  . . . . .'      More is better . . . .

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Thanks for your comments. In my opinion, mantua gave a very poor illustrations. Sometimes they're a bit hazy therefore I'm going to ask you more about the rigging problems. When I attach the sail and yard to the correct place I will post my results.

Once again - thanks a lot :)

Paweł

 

 

Current build: HMS Pandora: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/3409-hms-pandora-by-jastrz%C4%85b-constructo-185/

 

 

 

Finished projects:

Roar Ege 1:25, Billing Boats

Albatros 1:55, Constructo

Santa Maria 1:50, Mantua

 

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Pawel,

 

I'm afraid Mantua aren't the only ones, many kit instructions are similar – often leaving the builder in mid-air. You'll find much better instructions on MSW! :)

 

I'm sure we'll be looking out for your next posting.

Kester

 

Current builds: Sherbourne (Caldercraft) scale – 1/64th;

 

Statsraad Lehmkuhl (half model) 1/8th" – 1'.

 

Victory Bow Section (Panart/Mantua) scale – 1/78th  (on hold).

 

Previous build: Bluenose ll (Billings) scale – 1/100th.

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Hi Pawel, prior comments are excellent and can be supported by references.  However, since we have no archeological evidence of the Santa Maria (a Nao), and no extant plans, then ALL models and ALL replicas are conjectual.  That is, no one knows for sure what the details were.  So, where do we go from here?

 

Since the sprit sail on this ship was small (probably 8 meters square), it likely did not have a doulbe line, that is no block at the clue.  A single sheet would then have been run up to the forecastle and belayed at a cleat, kevel, timberhead or pin rail, most likely at at timber or timberhead. 

 

Blocks cost money and add weight so if the owner can make do without it, they did.

 

The two largest sails are the courses, both would have had a single block at the clue.  These sails needed the block and double line in order to handle the higher pressures. 

 

A key question that most of us must address is how 'accurate' we want our model, and how much research we are willing to expend.  We could spend years researching and never make a model.  So for me, since I try to balance the two, I get the latest research and make the model from that.  The latest research I know about is the book "The Ships of Christopher Columbus" by Franco Gay and Cesare Ciano, ISBN 88-240-3768-2, published 1996. 

 

In any case, enjoy your build and please keep us posted on your progress.

 

Duff

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Another item is the shape of the sails. 

 

The images you posted show an extreme gore at the foot of each sail (a gore is the curve of a sail at the foot or sides).   The kit manufacturers appear to have misinterpreted the shape from paintings.  In the paintings, the shape of the sails appear gored when there is a strong wind. 

 

In the book I cited above, all sails are shown straight at their foot and sides.  This is probably accurate as square sails would have been stronger.

 

Duff

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Duff your comments are really interesting. I know that SM is a bit of S-F model. I wanted to get the overall clue... and I got it - thanks to all of you :) So I will have to decide what to do because now I really don't know which solution would be the most suitable.

 

Duff, if there are no blocks the rope's end can be attached to the belaying in itself (correct?). The shape is like presented (I'm not an expert in ships, though) but I'm going to furl it a bit therefore it won't be so visible.

 

 

Look there please http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/2906-santa-maria-by-jastrz%C4%85b-mantua-scale-150/page-3#entry127808

 

Regards,

Paweł

Paweł

 

 

Current build: HMS Pandora: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/3409-hms-pandora-by-jastrz%C4%85b-constructo-185/

 

 

 

Finished projects:

Roar Ege 1:25, Billing Boats

Albatros 1:55, Constructo

Santa Maria 1:50, Mantua

 

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Duff,

 

I think you're probably right concerning the double sheet for the spritsail. Björn Landström a noted authority, in his book 'The Ship', shows a drawing of the Santa Maria which only has single sheets. However, it would seem that double sheets were introduced soon after 1492 when spritsails had become much larger.

 

You're very likely right too regarding the gore on sails.

Edited by Stockholm tar

Kester

 

Current builds: Sherbourne (Caldercraft) scale – 1/64th;

 

Statsraad Lehmkuhl (half model) 1/8th" – 1'.

 

Victory Bow Section (Panart/Mantua) scale – 1/78th  (on hold).

 

Previous build: Bluenose ll (Billings) scale – 1/100th.

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a little progress... I'm proud of the eye-spliced ropes. I read that it could also be a bowline hitch.

post-5602-0-57547900-1385319659_thumb.jpg

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post-5602-0-32008100-1385319669_thumb.jpg

post-5602-0-25015500-1385319673_thumb.jpg

Paweł

 

 

Current build: HMS Pandora: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/3409-hms-pandora-by-jastrz%C4%85b-constructo-185/

 

 

 

Finished projects:

Roar Ege 1:25, Billing Boats

Albatros 1:55, Constructo

Santa Maria 1:50, Mantua

 

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Another question: 

 

take a look at rope 21. It runs through two blocks. Is it possible to make a knot that cannot slip through the hole and the spare part of the rope will go smoothly through the second block and to the belaying pin?????

 

I hope I have made myself clear enough...

Paweł

 

 

Current build: HMS Pandora: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/3409-hms-pandora-by-jastrz%C4%85b-constructo-185/

 

 

 

Finished projects:

Roar Ege 1:25, Billing Boats

Albatros 1:55, Constructo

Santa Maria 1:50, Mantua

 

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I don't know where to tie the spare end... (one to the belaying pin and the second one????)

 

post-5602-0-15526500-1385325631_thumb.jpg

Paweł

 

 

Current build: HMS Pandora: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/3409-hms-pandora-by-jastrz%C4%85b-constructo-185/

 

 

 

Finished projects:

Roar Ege 1:25, Billing Boats

Albatros 1:55, Constructo

Santa Maria 1:50, Mantua

 

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Another question: 

 

take a look at rope 21. It runs through two blocks. Is it possible to make a knot that cannot slip through the hole and the spare part of the rope will go smoothly through the second block and to the belaying pin?????

 

I hope I have made myself clear enough...

Sorry, I don't see a rope 21 in your drawings.

Jay

 

Current build Cross Section USS Constitution  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/10120-cross-section-forward-area-of-the-uss-constitution/

Finished USS Constitution:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/103-uss-constitution-by-modeler12/

 

'A picture is worth a  . . . . .'      More is better . . . .

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Oh dear, I forgot about the photo... Anyway take a look at rope 21 and 25 as well. It's a similar matter.

post-5602-0-38524900-1385482648_thumb.jpg

post-5602-0-30824100-1385482654_thumb.jpg

Paweł

 

 

Current build: HMS Pandora: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/3409-hms-pandora-by-jastrz%C4%85b-constructo-185/

 

 

 

Finished projects:

Roar Ege 1:25, Billing Boats

Albatros 1:55, Constructo

Santa Maria 1:50, Mantua

 

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Pawel,

 

Sorry for not replying earlier but, as with Jay, I couldn't see a 21! Ok, what I think you have here are the lifts for the spritsail yard, and the foreyard? As you say both have the same arrangement.

 

To take the spritsail, the upper single block is joined to the bowsprit by a short span, or pendant, which is seized round both the bowsprit and the groove in the block. This is standing rigging, so would be dark in colour (black, grey or whatever). The end of the running part (tan thread) is also fixed to the tail of the block, and I think you want to know how was it done?

 

I believe the usual method was to form a small loop, which was seized, in the span at the base of the block – but which is not shown on the drawing. This would probably be just large enough to take the tail of the running part, which was doubled back and either seized or spliced to itself. The running part then runs through the block on the end of the spritsail, back through the sheave in the first block and in over the ship's bow to one of the belaying pins there. (I can't quite make out the numbers in the drawing.)

 

The same arrangement goes for the yard lifts, and the running part is probably made fast at the foot of the mast although, seeing that the yard is much heavier, there would most likely have been a purchase of some sort on deck.

Edited by Stockholm tar

Kester

 

Current builds: Sherbourne (Caldercraft) scale – 1/64th;

 

Statsraad Lehmkuhl (half model) 1/8th" – 1'.

 

Victory Bow Section (Panart/Mantua) scale – 1/78th  (on hold).

 

Previous build: Bluenose ll (Billings) scale – 1/100th.

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Kester, thanks for your help.

 

I have opened my HMS Pandora plans and they drew more accurate sketches. You are correct. The line is attached to the block (it has a loop in its part). Why does Mantua is so complicated?

Paweł

 

 

Current build: HMS Pandora: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/3409-hms-pandora-by-jastrz%C4%85b-constructo-185/

 

 

 

Finished projects:

Roar Ege 1:25, Billing Boats

Albatros 1:55, Constructo

Santa Maria 1:50, Mantua

 

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