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HMS Alfred by Gary B - 74 gun ship built in 1778 (garyshipwright)

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Gary: The stool sits at the angle of the sheer. The floor of the quarter gallery is at the same angle and height as the sheer and round up of the deck inboard. Bend your mind around that! Fitting the floor to the inside of the gallery at the correct angles will amuse you for some time....

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Druxey,

I understand the comment of the stools but not sure about the quarter gallery.  Is the attached simplified and exaggerated sketch what you are referencing?  

Thanks

Allan

image.png.bb84c62bb8b08acf7d5c1c1783892954.png

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Hi everyone!

Maybe garyshipwright is referring to this? I found a draught of 3rd rate 64gun. The minimum measurement of this height  is about 13 1/2", which is almost 34.3cm. It really needs a step or ladder to ensure safety. It's a tricky problem,there seems to be no model or book ever mentioned here with steps or ladders...image.thumb.png.2860e2f5a411758ce14f9d5a88b4b857.png

I will refer to Franklin's model to simplify this part - the so-called 'gray-zone'.

image.thumb.png.c35156c1707ffcfdd664e415596da92e.png

 

HJX

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Hi Mark and thank you very much. Yes sir there are a lot of pieces that seems to be floating. The form and how accurate the gallerys look, are based on the lower stools and how accurate they are placed, which is depended on the rails of the counter along with the sheer of of her which is based on  the curve or sheer of the wale and the planking . Once you get all that right,  and all the angles, in that order starting with the wale then every thing else seems to fall in place at least for the moment. O boy is this a mouth full. I do believe that I finally some thing right but looks good to the eye. I got a couple more pieces to place then I post up a couple of photos of the lower stools and its parts and pieces.   Gary

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Hello Gary,

 

I do not really understand what Druxey means, but there is no extra floor as hjx means. The stools going also with the sheer and not with the deck.

 

Here some pictures I made from the Superb (1760), sister-ship of the Bellona. The modellers did't work like we do, and build every beam as they are in reality, but you could see the middle stool is build in the direction of the rail and the sheer. (sorry my english!)

2075136707_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-08um16_00_58.thumb.jpg.4832965ab48ceed9a8ae6a29e78e0215.jpg

1905210008_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-08um16_00_38.thumb.jpg.c10c1a79cfd852589d4b3886ef7940bc.jpg

820986567_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-08um16_00_03.thumb.jpg.9b54466d3c429814550b36bbea7f39c3.jpg

Here you could see the outside of the ship and where the stools should be. 

1559984430_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-08um15_59_04.thumb.jpg.85d8c42e49ba60941a03362751ccd703.jpg

And so it looks complete. Opposite you see the entrances to the side galleries and the direction of the decks.

533240898_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-08um16_03_02.thumb.jpg.39a942f4d55887f3ad11406b6594da22.jpg

 

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On 6/7/2019 at 1:49 PM, druxey said:

Gary: The stool sits at the angle of the sheer. The floor of the quarter gallery is at the same angle and height as the sheer and round up of the deck inboard. Bend your mind around that! Fitting the floor to the inside of the gallery at the correct angles will amuse you for some time....

Thanks David. 

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10 hours ago, allanyed said:

Druxey,

I understand the comment of the stools but not sure about the quarter gallery.  Is the attached simplified and exaggerated sketch what you are referencing?  

Thanks

Allan

image.png.bb84c62bb8b08acf7d5c1c1783892954.png

Hi Allan. I believe what Druxey is saying is that there is a floor in the lower gallery above the stool  which would have been at the sheer of the deck line and had the round up of the deck beams.  Most of the time we think that like the upper stool which was not only the deck of the upper gallery but also the roof of the lower gallery.  This also would  keep the floor from having such a steep sheer to it like the stool. Make sense to me. Wish I had  thought about the floor. Gary

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8 hours ago, hjx said:

Hi everyone!

Maybe garyshipwright is referring to this? I found a draught of 3rd rate 64gun. The minimum measurement of this height  is about 13 1/2", which is almost 34.3cm. It really needs a step or ladder to ensure safety. It's a tricky problem,there seems to be no model or book ever mentioned here with steps or ladders...image.thumb.png.2860e2f5a411758ce14f9d5a88b4b857.png

I will refer to Franklin's model to simplify this part - the so-called 'gray-zone'.

image.thumb.png.c35156c1707ffcfdd664e415596da92e.png

 

HJX

Hi HJX  Thank you sir.I do believe that between what you have shown along with what Druxey said makes a whole lot of sense with the steep angle of the bottom stool. With the false floor shown in your drawing  the steep angle had no affect on a person climbing down and falling forward. Gary

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5 hours ago, Siggi52 said:

Hello Gary,

 

I do not really understand what Druxey means, but there is no extra floor as hjx means. The stools going also with the sheer and not with the deck.

 

Here some pictures I made from the Superb (1760), sister-ship of the Bellona. The modellers did't work like we do, and build every beam as they are in reality, but you could see the middle stool is build in the direction of the rail and the sheer. (sorry my english!)

2075136707_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-08um16_00_58.thumb.jpg.4832965ab48ceed9a8ae6a29e78e0215.jpg

1905210008_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-08um16_00_38.thumb.jpg.c10c1a79cfd852589d4b3886ef7940bc.jpg

820986567_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-08um16_00_03.thumb.jpg.9b54466d3c429814550b36bbea7f39c3.jpg

Here you could see the outside of the ship and where the stools should be. 

1559984430_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-08um15_59_04.thumb.jpg.85d8c42e49ba60941a03362751ccd703.jpg

And so it looks complete. Opposite you see the entrances to the side galleries and the direction of the decks.

533240898_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-08um16_03_02.thumb.jpg.39a942f4d55887f3ad11406b6594da22.jpg

 

Hi Siggi. Thank you sir. Your infor makes a lot of sense and if you was to measure up in your one photo from where the stool line is to the bottom of the door it probably would come out to be about two feet. That is a big drop down only to have to climb out of the quarter gallery. To me it makes sense that they added a floor which would of be laid at the same height as the deck it self. This way all one would have to do is step over the sill on to the floor and use the bathroom. Being they were the higher ups the higher ups would do their best to make them fill comfortable and jumping down would have been a pain in the butt. Gary

 

 

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Good morning Gary,

 

it would be interesting if Druxey has any historical information for his proposition. Fact is, that they build more for beauty then for comfort. Otherwise they would have build the stool directly after the sheer of the deck. In the plan Gaetan posted, there are also two steps down drawn in!

At the other hand, you would get problems with your head if you build in there an other floor.

 

That is the plan for the Dragon and also the Superb. The green lines are the stools and the violet ones the extra floors Druxey prefers. With the stools only, you have there a high of ≈6 ft, ore 1,83 m. So for me, and most people of the 18th century, just enough. With your extra floor in front of the gallery only ≈5.5 ft, ore 1,67 m! 

1223459679_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-09um09_52_08.jpg.2f7081654c6a3a74819c06a9ff59f9a7.jpg

 

 

 

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Hi Siggi52

Thank you for providing these good  photos of NMM model.

However, as far as we can see, the position which you marked of the 'floor-line'  is not accurate. Referring to the position of rail, the floor of the lower stool is indeed higher than the rail, considering that the beam will a little dropped from  middle- line to it's end, the floor near frame will more higher than the rail.

image.thumb.png.c450445c43657a0a68f3d3db0ee66790.png

 

And don't  worry about the internal space is not high enough, because the floor of the upper stool is also raised, and you can see that the floor is very thin,it's looks only 2" or 2 1/2".

 

I personally think that the floor of the lower stool is higher than the rail, may be same as the upper deck, or it may be slightly lower than the upper deck, but it is as high as the upper deck at the rear rail.

 

Also, I think the model's has been simplified. I don't believe that  it will be carved out of a whole piece of wood,except Drop, the floor will be planked.

image.thumb.png.fd037714e284a36ced4bdd4f95ca41a2.png

 

HJX

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Hi Siggi and HJX.  Thanks for the information which is great and a big help. Some thing to think about, which I didn't till this morning is the placement of the lower stool. I have not measured it height yet compared to others but Alfred's lower stool sits on top of the wale it self but her sister's stool sit's above the wale, by how much am unsure but plan on measureing it when I get out to the shop. If the lower stool is raised as plans show, then this would also raised the upper part of the upper counter. Any way if the lower stool is raised then the space from the stool to the deck level would have shrunk. On a different note has any one been in the lower quarter gallery of the Victory, and looked at the angle of the deck? I understand things have changed with her but was wondering if hers go down hill or is level with the deck.  Gary

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Hello Gary,

 

I think you build your Alfred as shown in the plan. With no extra floors ect. Than you are at least right. All other things are speculation. And so step are the stools not, that a seamen would get seasick when entering the gallery. 

 

@ hjx, from wich sources did you get your information of the raised stools ore floors?

 I think that you mixed up there some things. At that picture is the lower stool not build. And when you raise the middle stool, than the captain should not be larger than 4,5 ft, ore you have to build the upper stool above deck level 😉 All the stools are build at the inside of the rails and on top of it is a massiv block of oak, the upper stool. Have a look at Goodwins man of war... page 199.

1781088774_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-09um12_52_46.thumb.jpg.5c4e4423f8e22f37a04475b2463e02c9.jpg

 

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Hi Siggi52 !

Your last sketch is more accurate than mine,thank you! I overlooked one detail, the position of rail on the other side. But according to your sketch, the floor of stool will be more higher, especially in the rear.

I used your method to measure the height by scale, but she's  Hms warrior because I didn't have the draught of Alfred.I think this height can satisfy the average person, although it's quite uncomfortable.. But my personal idea is that the floor of stool will be a little lower than the upper deck.

image.thumb.png.df7e7edc92141830fde93df6a5f2ffce.png

If i move to it's port,it will be 6' 2".

image.thumb.png.d14696dfe0d014577e3d98b5c4dc5fd0.png

I checked out Mr. Goodwin's book. If i follow his structure, the height of my 74gun project is 0.45m, I think maybe I need a step or simplify it, just like Franklin's model.

image.thumb.png.07061e471bed90e35c14607c2efdb6e9.png

The internal space height 1.97M-2 1/2",it's about 1.9M.

image.png.c30e070ab37e817c54cc79e1822a9d9a.png

Although I have this idea personally-see below figure ,but it has no any basis,so i think i will simplify it.

image.thumb.png.e7a4cab2a38ca540bea4067b73761f37.png

HJX

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Hello HJX,

 

I would prefer your last sketches, but without the step. The stools are deeper than the decks and then you have also more freedom for your head. As in your plan of the Warrior then 7 ft if you measure from rail to rail. In Gaetan's post #455 are two steps down to the stool. Here are an other picture of the Egmond

2027391705_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-09um19_18_20.thumb.jpg.f8b9d8b8f41473146d0c092f2a7f2dd1.jpg

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3 hours ago, Gaetan Bordeleau said:

We have to be careful with drawings, especially with some curved parts which are sometimes exaggerated like the rear balcony, and maybe? other parts on the side view.

 

l.jpg

Thanks Gaetan and being careful is my middle name sir.

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Thanks guy I take all of the info I can get. HJX there is a difference in the height of the lower stool that one has to take in to account with Alfred and that is the forward height of the lower stool when compared with her sister Warrior. If you go to the most  forward upper edge on the lower stool and measure from there up to the top of the gun deck beams you get 18 inches  and Warrior most forward edge is 14 inches. The stool on Warrior I do believe sets up from the wale by another 14 to 15 inches but don't hold me to that one. Believe thats what I came up with. Because of this difference you lower stool on Warrior is a lot closer to the top of the beams. I have attach a photo of Warrior stern and Alfred's stern so you can see this. I have also added another photo which shows the ceiling in the quarter gallery higher then what we are seeing making it possible to stand up. 

PB100077.JPG

PB120085.JPG

Portsmouth-Dockyards-041.jpg

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Hi guys. I finally got the lower part of the quarter gallers and the counter all planked up. I didn't leave it bare and painted it to match the wales. One thing about it this time is it's easy on the eyes which makes me think that maybe just maybe I got it right or at least close to being right.  Gary

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20190609_112816.jpg

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The structure so far looks very fair, Gary. Often in contemporary models the lower molding is radiused around the corner rather than coming to a point.

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Looking great! This is another example of how we somehow think we know what is going on, only to discover that it is very much more complex than we thought!

 

Mark

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Just back from 4 weeks in the UK Gary and I am impressed with the progress you have made; looking great!

 

cheers

 

Pat

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Thanks Pat. Hope you had a good time and did you happen to get any photos of the inside of the gallery on the Victory. Maybe as your looking forward from the seat of ease. If not thank you any way and do hope you had a great time. Getting her lower parts of the gallery done is I believe a step in the right direction. Gary

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18 hours ago, SJSoane said:

Looking great! This is another example of how we somehow think we know what is going on, only to discover that it is very much more complex than we thought!

 

Mark

You are so right Mark. You figure after 30 years I would know what am doing but as the saying goes, you will allways be learning something new  in this hobby. Gary

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Hi Mark. No color/stain this time. Used Tamiya flat black  thinned down and didn't come out to bad. Used the same thing on the stbd side for some of the upper works.  Hope it doesn't peel off any time soon. Gary

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