Lettie G. Howard schooner by Cap'n'Bob - 1:48 POB - Finished

[Bedford]

Yes, it's a sad day when we can't learn from our fellow modellers.

 

Steve

[captainbob]

 Bob and Steve this seems to be the order of the day.

 

Michael

 

 

Yes, it's a sad day when we can't learn from our fellow modellers.

 

Steve

 

 

As we learn from each other, do we become experts or jack of all trades?  The difference is that the expert learns more and more about less and less until he knows everything about nothing.  On the other hand the jack of all trades learns less and less about more and more until he knows nothing about everything.

 

Ah, well, just a thought.       

 

Bob

[dgbot]

How true.  The more I learn about this hobby.  The more I do not know.

David B

[captainbob]

David,

 

Let’s look at what we as ship modelers need to know.  Basically we work in wood, but also glue, paint, metal, cloth, thread and string, some plastic, some paper and for R/C you need to know electric and control systems.  That sounds like a jack of all trades to me.

 

Bob

[michael mott]

 

On the other hand the jack of all trades learns less and less about more and more until he knows nothing about everything.

So let us all hope that we are not named Jack.... no offense meant to the Jacks of the world.

 

So where is the Jack-staff located to bring this back to the build?

 

Michael

[captainbob]

I don't think sail boats/ships ever had a jackstaff. 

 

Bob

[michael mott]

Well according to the Random House Dictionary definition 2 is that a jack shaft is the shaft upon which an idle wheel or fair-lead turns. I thought that there were fair-leads on ships and boats

 

Michael

[captainbob]

It is also a pole that stands in the bow of a boat upon which a flag called a jack flag flies.  They were used a lot on paddle wheel river boats to help with the steering.

 

Bob

Edited March 27, 2014 by Cap'n'Bob

[mtaylor]

Hmm... you two are mixing apples and hand grenades.  One's saying jack staff, the other is saying jack shaft.  

 

"Jack not name.  Jack is job" --- Sweetums (Muppet Movie)

[captainbob]

You're right. My error.

 

Bob

[popeye the sailor]

oh,  woe be to the names taken in context....I could name them.......but it would get rather jaded near the end

 

is your name not Bruce

 

no, it's Michael

 

that's gonna cause a bit of confusion......mind if we call ya Bruce to keep it clear?

[mtaylor]

oh,  woe be to the names taken in context....I could name them.......but it would get rather jaded near the end

 

is your name not Bruce

 

no, it's Michael

 

that's gonna cause a bit of confusion......mind if we call ya Bruce to keep it clear?

 

Let's try to call you Ray, but we don't have to call you Johnson.   Reference for those who remember this -->  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LztZu5s0-QU

[Bedford]

G'day Bruce!

Have you seen Bruce?

No Bruce.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Bedford

[captainbob]

OK, if we’re through name calling we can go on.  So moving right along.  I want to do everything necessary to the hull before I finish the deck. I put down the seven planks that make up the king plank. Why it is raised above the other planks I do not know.  The bowsprit is mortised into the sampson post and just set in place.  I mounted the staples that nothing is attached to.  Also the bowsprit chain plates (is that the correct name?) have been mounted.

 

raised king planks.

 

 

 

The sampson post doubles as the crutch for the jib boom.

 

 

 

[popeye the sailor]

very nice progress Bob!  bow spirit looks nice........planking too      I wonder if the thicker planking gives more support for the masts?

[michael mott]

The planking looks good Bob, will you be adding any support at the edges where the planks but up to the cover board?

 

Michael

[themadchemist]

That brass piece on the bowsprit looks wonderful. I can't see solder marks. You didn't pull a Michael and carve it from a solid brass billet did you?

 

Details please?

BTW, is there a lower latch point for the bobstay? I don't seem to see one, or is there a bobstay? or is it attached another way?

 

sorry for all the questions....(not really, I like learning from the pro's)

[michael mott]

Bob I am guessing that yuo made the bowsprit piece from a long strip and folded it in four places wrapping it around and then soldering the closed spaces between the two side of each tab. I could be completely wrong of course.

 

Michael

[Jim Lad]

Looking good, Bob.  I would guess that the thicker planks are for additional longitudinal strength.

 

John

[Mirabell61]

I like your brass parts Bob,

 

Deckplanking an bulwarks also looking great

 

Nils

[dgbot]

I agee with Jim.  These schooners were designed for hard driving .  The faster out the faster in.  The king plank was added to give more support to the hull.

David B

[captainbob]

First off, thanks for all the good comments and the likes.

 

Several of you made the same comments and asked the same questions.  So let me answer you all together.

 

The thicker planking is the king plank for added strength.  And there would be added beams below the deck to help support the masts.  I’m just surprise that the added thickness is above the rest of the deck.  It seems that it would be a cause for stumbling.

 

No, I’m not up to carving brass like Michael.  Besides this model is 1:48 instead of 1:8.  The brass piece on the bowsprit is made of .005” X .060” strip folded and soft soldered.  My soldering iron has a 1/8” chisel point.  I dab the joints with a liquid flux then place a small amount of solder on the flat of the iron and just touch it to the joint.  The brass being so small it heats fast and sucks the solder up into the joint.   Good guess, Michael.

 

There will be two straps on the bow at about waterline.  One will hold a line going to the end of the bowsprit the other will have a line going farther back where the second jib stay will fasten.

 

I hadn’t considered supporting the planking along the edge but I probably should.

 

Bob

[themadchemist]

I went back to page one and relooked at
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/?q=Drawing:%20ny1621&fi=number&op=PHRASE&va=exact&co%20=hh&st=gallery&sg%20=%20true

It's kind of blurry if expanded but I see what your talking about.

So here's some rookie questions.
I've noticed that of most of the pilot boats with only a foresail and no jib that the foremast is set much farther forward. On the Schooners the mast seems to be set farther back which moves the connection point of the foresail at about the stem line (instead of the bow-end) and the end of the bow the attachment for the jig...flying jig. Was this a developmental stage of the pilot boats evolution into schooners, aside from the hulls reshaping?

On the solder job, its amazing. I guess the fold gives it that bulkier look which looks more proportional. I think I'll borrow that mention as I'll soon be starting the DSotM again and starting the rigging of her, since the longboat project is about finished.
Again looking at the Lettie pg 1 I see what appears to be the 2 connection points. So it that a cross design between separate shrouds and bobstay like below.

from Petersson's text

[captainbob]

Ah Keith, now you’re getting into the physics and design aspects of ships. 

 

First, the placement of the masts and sails are a balancing act with the underwater shape of the ship.  Let’s take the profile of the ship hull below the waterline, and let’s find the center of area of that shape.  We will pretend that our ship is a wind vane and place the mounting post at this center of area point.  Now it is time to place the sails.  It becomes obvious that if the sails are too far forward the bow turns away from the wind and if the sails are too far astern the bow turns up into the wind.  This same thing happens to a ship in the water.  The locations of the sails have to be balanced with the underwater shape of the hull or the ship will turn into or away from the wind like the weather vane.  It becomes a little more complicated than that when the sails have to be shortened in a storm and the captain needs to know which sails can be reefed and how much to maintain this balance.

 

“Was this a developmental stage of the pilot boats evolution into schooners, aside from the hulls reshaping?”  Every new design of any type of boat is an evolutionary experiment in that the designer really doesn’t know if the new design is good or not until the boat is in the water and sailing.

 

Back again on sails, the wind pressure on a sail can be great.  A breeze of 30 MPH produces a force of 3.5 lbs. per square foot on the sail.  Concerning a jib sail this force is taken by the jib stay that tries to bend away from the wind.  The force on the jib stay will lift the bowsprit right off the ship.  So they tied the bow sprit down at the bow of the ship and placed the sampson post at the heal of the bowsprit to keep it from pushing down through the deck. The fore end of the bowsprit still lifted so they put chains under the jib stay location to hold the bowsprit down and also lines on the sides to stop the sideways motion.

 

The sail plan you were looking at was the plan as the Lettie was when bought.  I want to build it as it was originally.  The diagram below shows the sails and rigging I will follow.   

 

If you still have questions feel free to ask.  I love discussing ship and boat design.

 

Bob

 

[captainbob]

Thanks Lawrence, Your Victory is coming along nicely also.  I wish I had the room to try something like that.  Sorry you haven’t received the drawings of the Stone yet.  Hopefully before you finish the Victory.

 

Bob

[dgbot]

Capt Bob, your Schooner is coming along magnificently. There is a series of books out there about Pilots and there history. They give a very detailed history of the evolution of the pilot boat.

David B

[captainbob]

Thanks David, is the series called "Pilots and their History" ?

 

Bob

[dgbot]

Bob the books are Pilots: Pilot Schooner of North Amercai and Great Britain and Pilot: The World of Pilotage Under Sail and Oar.  both are by Tom CunLiffe 

David B

[captainbob]

Thanks David.  I'll look for them.

 

Bob

[themadchemist]

You won't be disappointed Bob, I just luckily found both volumes on ebay in unused condition for $35 (that's a steal, plus free shipping).

 

They've been on my want list since I found that Vol 1 is available on Google books, although only partially. If I recall correctly PopJack pointed me at the google books as well as Tidewater Triumph: The Development and Worldwide Success of the Chesapeake Bay Pilot Schooner by Geoffrey M. Footner.
 
The quality of the full glossy pages of Cunliffe's set, I put up there with Frolich's, The Art of Ship Modeling sold by ANCRE. They are also full size like Frolich's work. Cunliffe was the chief editor and writer of several sections, but they are the work of many experts. The shear volume of contemporary paintings is worth the price, not to mention the text.  
 
Here's the link for google books vol 1
http://books.google.com/books?id=VNsGi3nmuaQC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

and the 2 at amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Pilots-Pilotage-Schooners-America-Britain/dp/0937822698
and
http://www.amazon.com/Pilots-Pilotage-Schooners-European-Watermen/dp/0937822760/ref=pd_sim_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=13QMZCTWVCR6SWS555HE

The Footner text
http://www.amazon.com/Tidewater-Triumph-Development-Worldwide-Chesapeake/dp/0870335111/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1397065626&sr=8-5&keywords=pilot+schooners

Of course one of the best additions of late to my library is Chapelles, The American Fishing Schooners, 1825-1935. Its worth its weight in gold for the alphabetized diagrams of rigging details. I found it on ebay for $8.
http://www.amazon.com/The-American-Fishing-Schooners-1825-1935/dp/039303755X/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1397065626&sr=8-7&keywords=pilot+schooners

All these have been one reason the DSotM came to a halt as I delved into researching the Fore and aft schooner rig. One should also not forget Petersson's 2 excellent volumes. His Rigging: Period Fore-and-Aft Craft I have in pdf and its on my wish list in hardcover.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591147212/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=Z8PB5ZFM5FCH&coliid=I2S7O01XB8VDJL