Licorne (1755) by mtaylor - (POF) - 3/16 - French Frigate (Hahn) - Version 2.0 - TERMINATED

[NMBROOK]

I do agree with you regarding plywood Mark,even the Birch 'aircraft'ply I get from the modelshop isn't as good as it used to be.I have to say the plywood bulkheads in my new Euromodel kit is the best I have seen in over twenty years,where they get it from,who knows.

 

Kind Regards Nigel

[ChrisLBren]

Totally hear you on the warping issue - I experienced it myself when i was trying to source plywood during the winter of 2009 on Confederacy.  Why not just use the station frames and pair down the amount of frames from 66 to 22 and save the wood and the trouble since you're fully planking. 

[mtaylor]

Hmm... food for thought, Chris. 

[NMBROOK]

Totally hear you on the warping issue - I experienced it myself when i was trying to source plywood during the winter of 2009 on Confederacy.  Why not just use the station frames and pair down the amount of frames from 66 to 22 and save the wood and the trouble since you're fully planking. 

That is the way Ed Marple used to build his models,using every other,or every third frame.I had to reference your previous log Mark,but the style of frame construction is the same as what he used to use.His models still incorporated full internal detail,lower gun deck upwards.Only thinking how you can achieve the same results with a little less work.

 

Kind Regards Nigel

[42rocker]

At this point think long and think hard as to what you want at the very end. Thinking about the amount of work that you put in on your first build and how you did it. Do you really think that you would be happy in the end with doing anything less than another try at getting the Hahn method corrected and the way that you want it? I again say review what you want for your end project.

That said

GOOD LUCK in this as it's for sure your call.

 

Later Tim

[garyshipwright]

Footnotes to a build log.

 

I'll update this one periodically as I find stuff that's not "correct" in the sense of the way things were actually done.

 

1) The framing and frame spaces are not correct.  Hahn used the English method and not the French.  The French didn't use cant frames or sistered frames at this point in time. Hahn's information on room and spaces was incorrect.  Which, is another good reason to fully plank.

 

2) Mast tops and details such as blocks.... again, these are English.  The French parts were different.

 

3) Cannon.   Once again, these are English and not French.

 Hi Mark.

 

 Just to let you know sir, the French did have sister frames like Hahn did, only they were thicker sister frames. Your right they didn't have cant frames but one and this would have been all the way back at the stern, which I do believe was the fashion frame that connected the stern framing with the last square frame at the aft part of the ship. As far as the spacing have to agree with you, this also was different then what Hahn did and at the moment am unsure of what that is but will take a look in the Boudroit books and let you know. If you need any kind of information on the French ship sir, please let me know. I have quite a few of the Boudriot books and will be more then happy to pass along any info that you may need to help you. I have the L'Amarante of 1741, the La Renommee of 1744, the Salamandre of 1752 and the Boullongne of 1759 which should help you build her in her time frame. Look forward to your new build sir.  

 

Gary

[druxey]

If it's quality ply you need, you have to go to a serious wood supplier and ask for Baltic Birch ply. It's not cheap, but it is good quality!

[mtaylor]

Thanks all.

I'm going to go with the frames.  All of my "next" projects are fully framed and I want to get this technique down.  Now that may change... but for now, I need to do it framed if nothing else than to prove to myself I can succeed.

 

Gary,

I got the info from a very reliable source who PM'd me about the framing.  I think that at 1755 (when the ship was built) is what he meant about the frames.  They were different than the English when they did appear, that's true.  Anyway, I'm not ready to try lofting yet which is what it would take to redo the framing properly.  Maybe down the road a bit..  Like when I'm ready for HMS Roebuck?   

 

For reference, I'm using the Bonhomme Richard, Frolich's book, as well as the websites of Bello, Delacroix, Mailliere, and some French forums (reading only via Google Translator).   But, I will keep your offer in mind as sometimes conversation is needed instead of just reading.

 

Druxey,

Just curious if you have a source online?   Even our aviation oriented hobby shop can't get good birch plywood.   I have a side project for my Admiral I want to build that will need some good plywood (thin stuff <1/4").  

[augie]

We have a local Rockler's here, Mark.  They carry pretty high end stuff,  Don't know if you have one nearby by here's their site (with plywood)

 

http://www.rockler.com/wood/plywood

[Dan Vadas]

Hi Mark,

 

I'm planning on completely planking her, but that may change.

 

 

I'm betting it will - why do a Full Frame model and cover it all up??? Once you have sorted the issues with the Hahn framing plan, and the first few PERFECTLY MADE AND POSITIONED frames go in ...... well ......

 

If you were going to fully plank the model - why bother starting over ??? If you decide to go ahead with ply bulkheads I can already see what will happen - halfway through building the hull you'll get dissatisfied with the "shortcut" and start on Licorne v3.0   .

 

and as before, pre-cutting out the gunport area

 

 

A word of advice - DON'T. There are minute variations in the height and angle of sheer on EACH frame. No amount of careful measuring and cutting will get them EXACTLY right. There will be gaps that stand out like the dog's proverbials when you come to fit the Port Sills. A better strategy is to leave the frames at least 2mm too long and trim them to size with a sanding stick that goes through to the opposite port after at least the Deck Clamps go in (I left mine until after I'd planked the deck). Leave out the Toptimbers above the ports until the lower sills have been trimmed. Same goes for the other Toptimbers - leave the final trimming until MUCH later in the build.

 

And .... what TimC said above about planning  .

 

  Danny

[mtaylor]

Augie,

 

The closest Rockler's is 250 miles north in Portland.  Hmm.... I'll have to think if it's worth a road trip, especially since I dislike driving in Portland.

 

 

Danny,

 

I hear you and know where you're coming from since I have the same view.  I'm leaning towards a Confederacy type of planking with an open area below the main wales. My post #38 says fully framed even if the framing isn't French.  I've been giving this some thought for a long time and the bulkheads, while quick and dirty, aren't what I want for this ship build. 

 

Gunports.. oh yeah... I hit those issues on the Version 1.0.  Luckily (?) the sills are not bird-mouthed into the frames. But I can at least get within a few mm where the sills should be.  Cleaning out the port area on the frames this time will be an issue since frames are only 5 mm (3/16") wide (fore and aft) and opening the port will take half that amount so I need to at least get some of the material (but not all) removed early on.  There will be filler added on frames to help.  This time around, I'm not going to stress out too much on the gunports.  There's a few ports towards the bow where the clamp will need trimming at the top sill area but that's not a major issue.

 

I'm doing this one right with timber that will be spot on to the dimensions as opposed to making them too thick.

 

At this point, I think I know where I want to end up and that is NOT doing a Version 3.  

[Dan Vadas]

Hi again Mark,

 

I'm leaning towards a Confederacy type of planking with an open area below the main wales.

 

 

Ah .... then the gunports won't be such a big issue as the framing under them won't be seen - if you finish a bit short on a frame or two you can always pack them.

 

I'm no authority on French ships - as a matter of fact I know nothing at all about their construction apart from a few things I've picked up from your Log and a few others, so I won't be able to give you any useful advice in that regard. As far as building tips go, that's a different story , and I'll be glad to help in any way I can.

 

One thing I thought of a few minutes ago - in English ships of the latter half of the 18th century (my area of expertise ) the Port Sills are horizontal athwartships. Does the same apply for French ships, or are the sills the same angle as the deck camber?

 

  Danny

[augie]

OK, here's one last thought.  Balsa USA

 

http://shop.balsausa.com/category_s/67.htm

 

They have plywood in the size range you're looking for.  It's pretty good quality but it's all birch plywood.  I've used it on a lot of airplane formers.

[uss frolick]

I understand that Harold Hahn wasn't trying to make his models as an example of actual framing practice, but I think he did err, at least visually, by making his frames too thin. On a real ship of war, the rules of "room and Space" dictated that here was always more wood than space all along the ship's frame. The opposite is true with all of Hahn's plans.

[mtaylor]

Thanks all for support and discussion.  It's discussions like these that make one think.

 

Augie,

Thanks for the link.  I think that will be useful for the side project I'm getting started on.

 

Dave,

Thanks for the input.  I was probably closer on actual frame width on Version 1. 

 

Danny,

They're horizontal athwartships, as far as I know.  Makes it easier to notate where they go and also to fit and finish them. 

 

All,

I'm going with the frames and fully planked.  Logic may say otherwise but deep down, I know that this is way I need to do it.  I need the test and need to pass it.

 

I also have an Admiralty Directive that all ships will be fully planked and rigged.  Hoping that at some point, I change the mindset of the Admiralty.. 

 

Anyway,  back to the drafting board.  I've got 10 down and 50 to go. 

[trippwj]

I also have an Admiralty Directive that all ships will be fully planked and rigged.  Hoping that at some point, I change the mindset of the Admiralty.. 

 

 

 

Good luck with that one, Mark!  maybe, just maybe, if that side project for "She who must be obeyed" is of suitable result, she may relax the requirements for just this once...maybe.

[Small Stuff]

Thanks all for support and discussion.  It's discussions like these that make one think.

 

Augie,

Thanks for the link.  I think that will be useful for the side project I'm getting started on.

 

Dave,

Thanks for the input.  I was probably closer on actual frame width on Version 1. 

 

Danny,

They're horizontal athwartships, as far as I know.  Makes it easier to notate where they go and also to fit and finish them. 

 

All,

I'm going with the frames and fully planked.  Logic may say otherwise but deep down, I know that this is way I need to do it.  I need the test and need to pass it.

 

I also have an Admiralty Directive that all ships will be fully planked and rigged.  Hoping that at some point, I change the mindset of the Admiralty.. 

 

Anyway,  back to the drafting board.  I've got 10 down and 50 to go. 

 

Mark untill I've got a lathe I can only built hullmodels - they also save space in the flat and the area at the showcases to clean is a significant smaller one.

[rtropp]

Just a quick note:

Rockler ships orders and that has to be cheaper than driving. I just received a test order of a few different types of planking (all hardwoods, not birch ply).

While the pieces were all flat and true, one piece had a small hole in it. I called and they sent a replacement with no fuss, no bother, no charge.

 

Richard.

[clloyd]

Mark untill I've got a lathe I can only built hullmodels - they also save space in the flat and the area at the showcases to clean is a significant smaller one.

 

No no no...

one doesn't need a lathe to make masts.  The masts I've made using just a a chisel and sandpaper are better looking than the turned ones.

 

Space issues though - I'll give you that one

 

Colin

[capnharv2]

Mark,

 

I appreciate full framing, even though it's planked over. I've often thought of doing the same when I start scratchbuilding. I guess, to me, it's not a whole lot different than making details in the bowels of the ship that nobody will ever see-but it's still worth doing.

 

Have fun! That's what it's all about.

 

Thanks,

 

Harvey

[rdsaplala]

Nice to see Licorne 2 up and running, Mark, and I'm pleased to see the modifications you're doing with the Hahn plans to avoid the previous problems 

I'm looking forward to see this beauty take shape

[Sjors]

O dear......

Too late !!!!!!

He has started yet !

Am I happy that I have Anja in the house !!!!!!  

She told me when i was driving in the bus that you started her but I have to wait till I get home.

That's crowd here at the moment.

Can some one makes place for me please ??????

I hope it's ok with you Mark that I put the popcorn machine in the corner.....?

I'll do this only once !

 

 

[gjdale]

'Bout time you got here with the popcorn Sjors! I've saved some room for you next to me.

[SJSoane]

 

Mark, I look forward to watching the build!

 

Mark

[src]

Mark,

Just discovered V2.0 here. Whew! Found a seat left, and there is fresh popcorn. I will be watching and learning like before. 

If you dont like driving in Portland there is a Rockler in San Francisco...... (ducks)

I'll be quiet now and watch.

Sam

[mtaylor]

No fighting, gentlemen... plenty of room.

 

Sam,

I'm thinking if I need a road trip, make it worthwhile.  San Diego maybe at least the weather is better. 

 

As for San Francisco... err.. no.  There's at least one suburb I'm not welcome in.  Long story involving a 36 foot motorhome and sign (hidden behind at tree) that said "no vehicles over 4 tons"... 

[src]

Then you would have to drive through LA, we have 3 here, I would be happy to show them to you.

Sam

[mtaylor]

When I do it, you're on!!!!

[mtaylor]

Update time... Things have not been quiet in the shipyard.

 

I laminated the plans to some MDF and attached a strip of wood at the reference line.  Also attached the stern framing to this so as not to mis-read any critical dimension.

 

The strip allows me to use the Ed Tool without any induced errors from having it canted slightly.

 

I've marked all the plans with appropriate reference marks and rescanned them all.  Also broke up Version 1.0 in order salvage certain bits..  like everything along the centerline... bitts, grates, pin rails, pumps, capstan, etc., some or all of the deck beams but none of the deck planking.   Also salvaged the mast steps and the stern framing.  I'll use the stern framing for some references.

 

I'm currently cutting out with as much precision as I can muster, a new build board.  I noted that on the old one, there were some frame notches that we either too deep or not deep enough.  Stupidity on my part.  I'll be re-using the previous version of the frame squaring jig (on the right in the picture).

 

Hopefully, in the next week or so, I can start cutting the keel, deadwood, and stem.  Since the wood for framing won't be here until early May, I'm planning on building some sub-assemblies such as most of the deck furniture.   I've located a local source of good birch plywood,  and am considering Woodcraft or the local source for masting materials and some other items.

[42rocker]

Interesting Start. Good Luck with it.

 

Later Tim