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Licorne (1755) by mtaylor - (POF) - 3/16 - French Frigate (Hahn) - Version 2.0 - TERMINATED


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I've had a moment to research the upper finishing in French ships. It was indeed closed at the side and lined with lead sheet but, unlike the British, life-lines and floats were stored in the open top. (Jean Boudriot, The Seventy-four Gun Ship, Volume II, page 51.)

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

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I'm thinking you're both right, Druxey and Gaetan. Because of the drawing on Licorne, When I first read some time ago what Druxey reminded me of was that it only applied to 74's.  Belle-Poule is the same way and Mr. Delacroix did tell me to reference Belle-Poule for many things.  

 

There is the inside height of the gallery which means the officer would be bent over the entire time they're in there... except for sitting. But that sort of fits in with the cramped quarters of the frigates. 

 

Merde, back to the drawing board to figure out how to do it.  I've got a couple of options I think... either a rail only or the inside of the rail lined.  Either way, the roof will need to stop just above the upper molding.  

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Ok.. I'm picking up the gauntlet.   One freestanding railing on each gallery roof.    I think I've got it figured out.....  I'm studying Belle-Poule and it appears the line for the sheer rail are visible behind the rail...  

 

Anyone know what the float that was kept there looked like?  

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Looked like a rectangular parcel. It was made of cork covered with canvas, parcelled up with light line, grab loops around the edges and apparently tarred all over. It was about big enough for a man to lie on.

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

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Thanks Druxey.  I see that on Belle Poule but thought it was support beam...  Two of them... one at each end of the roof/railing area.

 

I'll see what I can do.  Nothing like pushing one's self outside the comfort zone.   

Edited by mtaylor

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Mark,

 

I have begun this interesting journey you are traveling but you know how long it is going to take to get myself up to speed. To fully appreciate the ambiance requires careful reading of the many postings along the way and looking backwards on each commenters history to fully understand what they are bringing to your table.

 

Do you know how many mornings that will fill up at Starbucks? Thank you for so willingly sharing your excellent work .  .  .  .

 

Respectfully,

John

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Mark, I think you are on the right track. Druxey likely found the same stuff I have.

 

Even some bottle-style quarter galleries had a cup-like bin at the tippy top, judging from drawing shadows and perspective. After Caffiere, there was radical change in gallery design and by 1780 you saw all kinds of stuff for the gallery upper-finish; flat closed roofs, angled roofs with or without carving, and roofs with ‘rails’, forming a bin for MOB gear or a cistern, or whatever. The 1787 Vial du Clairbois shows a ‘roof bin’ finish with respect to 74s. Frigates would not have been substantially different.

 

post-1377-0-62015500-1466180554_thumb.jpg

 

The 1785 Calypso had ‘rails’, Proserpine did not (just finish roof carving). Admittedly, the photos are of models of 1800 and 1804 ships, but show the idea of how the ‘rails’ extend outside the side of the hull, so you can see how it goes. Boudriot notes there was even a canvas shelter top that deployed over the top of the bin and notes the doorway (small) cut into the bulwark, way aft, for access (at least in La Flore).

 

Your NMM plans show a feature that I would consider dispositive, although there is lots of room for disagreement. The top line of Licorne’s quarter gallery finish is a curve.  This curve is displaced from the line of wale and line of rail, and has a curvature that cannot be reconciled with some older sheer line of the vessel. Other ships that had a simple, ‘railless’, roof finished by being faired to and flowing into the corresponding sheer or main rail. . Licorne’s is clearly something that curves outwardly from the hull surface in this area, as shown by other ‘bin-top’ vessels.

 

The rail slopes inward and can be an open rail (not usual), or lined with lead or canvas (typical).  The underlying physical roof structure will be a skoosh flatter – wood, lead covered. Hard to know the actual roof angle, but Vial gives the proportion of 2/3 the overall rise for a 74. Licorne is also unusual in that the after edge of the finish does not connect with the cove (horseshoe). This suggests a “dome-like” roof which was very common for the period and might well be an artifact of the bottle roof. For a rebuild, a yard dog would very likely take the path of “save what you can, and use what you save”, but this is pure speculation.

 

Enough of my blithering. I hope this helps somewhat.

 

Ciao. John

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I am the last guy in the world to challenge Gerard Delacroix or Gaetan Bordeleau, but I believe the Belle Poule is not quite appropriate in this specific instance.

 

A major repair/rebuild would have had to happen at least a decade and a half after launch. That takes her to ~1770, long after Caffieri's death and during Lubet's heavy handed minimalism. 1770 would put her right at the end of the first 12-pdr build program and just a few years ahead of the 1775 monster build program.

 

Given the chaos of this transitionary period, and the fact that she was a major repair/rebuild, it is hard to wrap my head around a designer draught, no matter how similar the vessel. Just look at NMM draughts of a French ship 'as captured' and the same ship after a couple months (or less) in a Brit dockyard (the differences are beyond striking).

 

Yard dogs are sensitive creatures. Once they get used to doing something one way, then, hey, that's kinda what ya gonna get for everything else. Ok, so I'm cynical. You could do a Belle-Poule, and I know it will be gorgeous and proportioned just right. But besides being cynical, I'm also a butt-head. Just saying.

 

No worries either way, Mark, my Commodorable whacks me up the side of my head as often as she thinks I need it. Which is a bit more often than I'm wanting to own up to, but likely a teensy bit less often than I really need. B)

 

Ciao. John

Edited by JohnE
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Mark,

 

I have begun this interesting journey you are traveling but you know how long it is going to take to get myself up to speed. To fully appreciate the ambiance requires careful reading of the many postings along the way and looking backwards on each commenters history to fully understand what they are bringing to your table.

 

Do you know how many mornings that will fill up at Starbucks? Thank you for so willingly sharing your excellent work .  .  .  .

 

Respectfully,

John

 

I know how many mornings it fills, John... and how many pots of coffee I have to make..   :D  :D  :D  :D   Nice to have you along for this rollercoaster ride.

 

 

I am the last guy in the world to challenge Gerard Delacroix or Gaetan Bordeleau, but I believe the Belle Poule is not quite appropriate in this specific instance.

 

A major repair/rebuild would have had to happen at least a decade and a half after launch. That takes her to ~1770, long after Caffieri's death and during Lubet's heavy handed minimalism. 1770 would put her right at the end of the first 12-pdr build program and just a few years ahead of the 1775 monster build program.

 

Given the chaos of this transitionary period, and the fact that she was a major repair/rebuild, it is hard to wrap my head around a designer draught, no matter how similar the vessel. Just look at NMM draughts of a French ship 'as captured' and the same ship after a couple months (or less) in a Brit dockyard (the differences are beyond striking).

 

Yard dogs are sensitive creatures. Once they get used to doing something one way, then, hey, that's kinda what ya gonna get for everything else. Ok, so I'm cynical. You could do a Belle-Poule, and I know it will be gorgeous and proportioned just right. But besides being cynical, I'm also a butt-head. Just saying.

 

No worries either way, Mark, my Commodorable whacks me up the side of my head as often as she thinks I need it. Which is a bit more often than I'm wanting to own up to, but likely a teensy bit less often than I really need. B)

 

Ciao. John

 

1770 would fit it into the period after Belle-Poule's launch.  They were, in fact, together when Licorne was captured and Belle-Poule went on to greater glory.  The whole even helped drag France into the American Revolution.

 

Part of the problem with sorting this is that Hahn discovered that the masting/yards dimensions only fit with Le Venus.  Yet, there's lots of discrepancies between the periods involved.  Le Venus was much later and an 18-pdr.  The rigging and a few other "details" was a stage beyond my timeframe.  

 

Rebuilds are nightmare for modelers.  Have a look at the conversations of Victory or Constitution for example.  Luckily the drawings for this ship are "as captured" so that gets me closer in the ballpark.  The downside, they still need a lot of interpretation due to the "quality" of the drawings/copies.

 

What I infer from all the reading and conversations is that the French did as much standardization as they could during rebuilds.   So , I'm just trying to reconcile things more.  

 

As for the galleries... there is no doorway into the "garden".  As for lining... I'm on the ropes for that.  If (ok.. if.. when) I get the rail finished, I'll sort out the lining.  Maybe flip a coin...  :D  ;)  I do have to wonder which would be more appropriate... canvas or lead?  Or from my viewpoint.. silkspan and either white paint or gunmetal gray?  

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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After making the decision, I leapt into the fray once more.     I've drawn and cut the rails out of Euro Boxwood (they still need some more cleaning up after seeing the macro photo...  In real life at wide open Ferrari speed, they look pretty good.

 

The plan is to finish shaping the roof where the rail goes, hollow it out to the "bathtub" look on the rail side and bottom.  I'm unsure if I can get a bit in there to leave the back against the hull...  I'll then probably dye it black.  The rails will be soaked, heated (or steamed if the Admiral gives permission) and bent to the "tub".    I hope to have this done in a couple of days as I'm really anxious to start working on the stern carvings.

 

Sorry about the photo.. 

 

post-76-0-75128000-1466216369_thumb.jpg

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Thats Rail looks so great mate. It doesn't matter if it was done by the DEATH STAR or not. You still have to do it in Corel. That would be a very trick job, and you deserve all the praise mate

Havagooday and look after Janet!

Greg

"Nothing is impossible, it's only what limitations that you put on yourself make it seems impossible! "

 

Current log : The Royal Yacht Royal Caroline 1749 1:32 by Greg Ashwood:...

 

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Nice bit of drawing there, Mark. Has a speedy, SR-71 look to it. Be careful hollowing that gem.

Ken

Started: MS Bounty Longboat,

On Hold:  Heinkel USS Choctaw paper

Down the road: Shipyard HMC Alert 1/96 paper, Mamoli Constitution Cross, MS USN Picket Boat #1

Scratchbuild: Echo Cross Section

 

Member Nautical Research Guild

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:)

In progress:

CUTTY SARK - Tehnodidakta => scratch => Campbell plans

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/2501-cutty-sark-by-nenad-tehnodidakta-scratched-campbells-plans/page-1#entry64653

Content of log :

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/2501-cutty-sark-by-nenad-tehnodidakta-scratched-campbells-plans/page-62#entry217381

Past build:

Stella, Heller kit, plastic, Santa Maria, Tehnodidakta kit, wood, Jolly Roger Heller kit, plastic

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That is a rail to be proud of. Great job.

"A Smooth Sea NEVER made a Skilled Sailor"
- John George Hermanson 

-E.J.

 

Current Builds - Royal Louis - Mamoli

                    Royal Caroline - Panart

Completed - Wood - Le Soleil Royal - Sergal - Build Log & Gallery

                                           La Couronne - Corel - Build Log & Gallery

                                           Rattlesnake - Model Shipways, HMS Bounty - Constructo

                           Plastic - USS Constitution - Revel (twice), Cutty Sark.

Unfinished - Plastic - HMS Victory - Heller, Sea Witch.

Member : Nautical Research Guild

 

 

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Thanks for the likes and the comments.  

 

Full disclosure time.   The results this time around were not good, but have provided a learning experience.   I found, I can produce the tubs, the rails, the roof and assemble them.  A couple of errors reared their ugly heads and so it's back to the drawing board.   I think I just need to remake the "tubs' and get the error angle and size right.

 

First pic... doesn't look too bad.  I picked a black stain for two reasons.   On a test, I wasn't getting the railing sticking to either flat acrylic or flat enamel paint.  The second is that the contrast is better.  I used the mill to hollow out the inside of the tub, something I'd not done before so definitely learned something.  

 

post-76-0-63196200-1466376795_thumb.jpg

 

Here's where the failure hit... the tub is too big and thus the railing goes too far astern and secondly, note the rollup at each of the railing at the roof join.  I didn't get the angle on the tub right,  The railing needs to lean in more toward the hull.

 

post-76-0-92351500-1466376805_thumb.jpg

 

Rework, re-do time has started...   I hope someone else can learn from my screw-ups.   ;)

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Minor correction to the above...  I think the "tub" has to go.  There's about 16 inches between the rail and hull with the re-design when I allow for the angle to be right..   

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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It's the screw-ups we learn from Mark; thanks for posting them.  At least with the "death star" recutting/shaping is a tad easier :)   We also have to remember that the macro-photos also make things look worse than they really are to the eye.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited by BANYAN

If at first you do not suceed, try, and then try again!
Current build: HMCSS Victoria (Scratch)

Next build: HMAS Vampire (3D printed resin, scratch 1:350)

Built:          Battle Station (Scratch) and HM Bark Endeavour 1768 (kit 1:64)

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Try starting with a small block, carved to shape and fitted to the model. You can then wrap paper around it to get the expanded view of the railing.

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

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Pat,

It didn't look right to my eye.  And yes, the Death Star does make multiple parts or even reworks easier than spending a lot of time with a scroll saw.  

 

 

Druxey,

Yep.. I did that the first time.  Carved the block down and then used cellotape to get the railing.   I blew it, but it's part of the learning curve.  

 

 

A bit of philosophy here.....

My dad has a saying that I've found works for me..  "Show me a man who's never made a mistake and I'll show a man who's never tried anything different."  I think I'm embracing that on this build.   :D  :D  :D   Then too, my dad didn't learn to use a computer until he was 75.   He's a tough act to follow.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Mark, nice try.  It was still cool in effect, even though it didn't quite meet your fit standards.  The redo is bound to please.  

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You're close Mark - those rails came out fantastic by the way.  Really nice job!

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32  Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72  IJN Notoro 1/700  Akitsu Maru 1/700

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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Mark, can you make a paper template/tracing of the base of the railing and then scan it into your drawing program. That would get you closer to the correct sweep.

Ken

Started: MS Bounty Longboat,

On Hold:  Heinkel USS Choctaw paper

Down the road: Shipyard HMC Alert 1/96 paper, Mamoli Constitution Cross, MS USN Picket Boat #1

Scratchbuild: Echo Cross Section

 

Member Nautical Research Guild

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Ken,

I have the base etched into the wood as well as the top...  Once shaped, I'll use the cellotape method to get the decorations/railing right. 

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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I await your next photos. For some reason, this thick Yankee isn't seeing the picture correctly. I'll go stand in a corner and wait now....

Ken

Started: MS Bounty Longboat,

On Hold:  Heinkel USS Choctaw paper

Down the road: Shipyard HMC Alert 1/96 paper, Mamoli Constitution Cross, MS USN Picket Boat #1

Scratchbuild: Echo Cross Section

 

Member Nautical Research Guild

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