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HMS Bellerophon 1786 by AON – scale 1:64 – 74 gun 3rd Rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

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Here is a video showing the method of making treenails that was shown to me by a very talented model maker that is in our local club.

 

Of course, for all that have done it over and over before, it is quite a simple process... but for the rest of us, a picture is worth a thousand words and a video is priceless.

I always tend to make more out of things then they are.

 

Other things I'd learned.  Treenails and bolts are used in the planks on the sides of the hull.  The deck planks were spiked and plugged and the plugs were barely (if at all) noticeable.

The thickness of the hull planking determined the diameter of the bolt or treenail which were not the same size.

Bolting/treenailing patterns differed outside versus inside.  Wedges were driven into the ends of treenails to make them hold better.

Deck planking did not always run straight on the upper (weather) decks, in the earlier periods, up to somewhere in the mid 1700's, they bent inwards at the bow and stern.

The head of a deck spike was about 5/8" diameter.

 

Thickness of  hull planking / Diameter of Bolts / Diameter of Treenails (Wooden Ship Building, Charles Desmond, 1919 - same as ASA dated 1885)

1"  /  1/2"  /  7/8"

2-1/2"  /  5/8"  /  1"

3" to 3-1/2"  /  3/4"  /  1-1/8"

4" to 4-1/2"  /  7/8"  /  1-1/4"

5" to 5-1/2"  /  15/16"  /  1-3/8"

6" and over  /  1"  /  1-1/2"

 

Deck fastening details - Elements of wooden ship construction - curtis 1919.JPG

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Earlier (English) naval ships' treenail diameters were in proportion to the ship's length. I seem to recall the figure of  1" diameter for ever 100' 0" of keel. A sloop of 96' 0" had ⅞" diameter treenails, for example.

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And Lloyd's went by tonnage to size everything per Wooden Ship Building, Charles Desmond, 1919

 

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Had a most enjoyable afternoon.

Started fairing the hull.

 

Just wanted to be the first person in history to ever write those words.  :blink:

 

Also, my #6-32 helicoil inserts came in today.  One problem, they were not stainless steel.

The supplier in Cambridge is overnighting them by courier to St. Catharines. I should pick them up Monday afternoon.

2.jpg

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Bad and good news for me.

The Bolt and Nut supplier in St. Catharines failed to fill my order for the #6-32 stainless steel helicoil inserts.

Amazon.com has the item and advertises they will ship it to Canada but try to place the order... sorry!

Amazon.ca does not offer it.

I have since found Ackland-Grainger has the item and at half the price.

Placed the order on line yesterday.

Now we wait to see if they follow through.

 

 Going to visit the local wood carving club this afternoon.

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Buyinbg on the internet can be really frustrating, Allen. It is very hard to find specific items at a reasonable price in the Netherlands, hence I order a lot in Germany, the UK, and even Canada, sometimes the US although their postal service sets you back a fair penny. Hope you get your items in a jiffy

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Thank you Don,

At my last place of employment, they were my supplier of choice, and we would hold our orders until we had a substantial amount to reduce the overall delivery charge.

I could get the odd personal item free of charge that way.

As of late, I've been trying to support my countries economy.

I cannot say this any differently without getting political.

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I took advantage of some recovery time (pinched nerve in my lower back) to go through a bunch of the newspaper articles.

(I am much better today)

Over this time (my last push) I concentrated on the 1700's and (just now) completed that era.

Only 497 more pages to complete 1800's  (originally almost 1000 pages).

Attached is a PDF of the index of my transcriptions at this time for those interested.

This is far more info than any book I've read on this ship and her travels.

HMS Bellerophon - Part 2 - Newspaper Articles and Letters - INDEX.pdf

Edited by AON

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Ah, the rabbit-hole of research! Ain't it fun? Glad to read that your back is better.

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Also just received my helicoil inserts by courier from Acklands Grainger.

I'll be doing a trial in wood tomorrow, and then get them in my keel to clamp the build down to the table securely, and remove the pieces of wood from the table.

acklands grainger helicoil insert (2).jpg

acklands grainger helicoil insert (1).jpg

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TESTING the stainless steel #6-32 helicoil thread insert for mounting my build to the table and eventually the display mounting board.

FYI:  #6 refers to the screw thread diameter; 32 means 32 threads per inch.  I learnt long ago that the full strength of a thread is developed in the first fully engaged 5 threads, everything after that is safety factor.  When I ordered mine I made sure it was long enough to have at least 5 full threads... mine has 7.  

 

I decided to drill and thread a hole in an attempt to assist the insert into feeding into the wood.

First I drilled a 9/64 inch (0.1406 inch) hole for a #8-32 tap.

Now a #8-32 thread is a slightly smaller diameter than the outside diameter (OD) of the insert but I thought as it was going into wood I might be able to ease it in so it followed the 8-32 and cut it's own threads a wee bit deeper.

 

That did not happen as the "wire" is very slim and so it deformed.  I then tried feeding it in with it on the threaded rod and that did not work.

If I had spent an extra $40 for the correct tap and proper holder for the insert I likely would have been successful, but I didn't think the extra expense was worth it for 4 holes.

 

Luckily I purchased 10 inserts and only need 4 for the job.

 

So next I decided to try by drilling a stepped hole.  

First I used a #29 drill bit which is slightly larger than the rod OD  at 0.136 versus 0.132 inches and drilled through the wood.  So the rod slips thru easily.

Second I used a #15 drill bit and drilled down 1/4".  The #15 bit is 0.180 inch diameter and the insert is 0.1785 inch OD.  The next smaller bit would be too small (#16 at 0.177 inch).

This created a step or shelf that the insert rests on when placed in the hole.  Although advertised as 0.276 inches tall the insert is actually 0.232 inches tall so a 1/4" (0.25 inch) deep hole puts it just below the surface.  My keel assembly is almost 1/2" tall.

 

I then inserted the threaded rod and rub some good old petroleum jelly (Vaseline) on the OD of the rod threads.

Then I screwed the insert onto the end of the rod.

Then I cleaned up a bit of the petroleum jelly that got pushed out of the threads by the insert.

I applied a thick two part epoxy onto the OD of the insert.  The petroleum jelly is supposed to keep the epoxy from migrating through the coil of the wire and gluing the threaded rod to the insert.

I then pulled the rod back into the wood block to draw the insert in and up to the shelf or step.

I let that set for a while and eventually removed the threaded rod.

Now it is curing.

Later today or more likely tomorrow morning I will test that it is holding, does not spin.  I will apply reasonable torque (a wee bit over snug) for the small thread.

 

The end of the stainless steel threaded insert has a tang blocking the hole.  This is used with the proper insertion tool to help thread the coil into a threaded hole.  It is meant to be broken off after the item is installed.  If what I just did works, I think I will leave it on as a stopper for the threaded rod.

 

Below are some photos.

1 - test block - rod entry side.jpg

2 - test block - insert entry side.jpg

3 - insert epoxied in hole.jpg

Edited by AON

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I must be thick, but why do you need to do all this? If I understand what you are trying to do, would not a threaded insert do the job? Or am I missing something?

Edited by druxey

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1735122338_helicoilthreadedinsert.JPG.6d7254b9b13399bbc05afef9d4885bde.JPG

 

Above is a threaded insert (aka helicoil threaded insert)

Below is a blind nut.

1141637847_blindnut.JPG.92130e673e320d3bced0159fe0b38e19.JPG

I think you are referring to the blind nut with the flange and spikes that have a much larger diameter cylinder (with the threads inside) than the OD of the threaded insert, requiring a larger hole and length removing more wood than I prefer.  The flange on the #6-32 blind nut is too large for the width of my keel and would require filing.  The thickness of the flange requires a spotface in the keel to get the top flush or buried. The spikes are just a pain in the behind.

 

I was looking for something cleaner than the flanged/spiked blind nut, and cleaner than a standard hex nut that would need to be filed across flats to fit in a pocket that would need to be chiselled out of the top of the keel.  I am attempting something different.  If this does not work I will resort to the hex nut, that is quite functional, but ugly (and, yes, I know it will be hidden).

 

And you, sir, are anything but thick.

Edited by AON
added "aka helicoil threaded insert"

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I started to use 6-32 brass inserts on Hayling, but felt that they were too wide for the 12" keel. The 6-32 insert measures about .218 dia. The pilot drill is between a #5-#8 which depends the the hardness of the wood. They work great and are quite easy to install. If you can pilot drill safely into your keel then it would be a great way to go.

kti_1.jpg.8b134a39b4cc5c7ca0c3fa829cb13792.jpg

Mike

 

Edited by Stuntflyer

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Thank you Mike.

I had looked at these and thought they were quite large a barrel diameter and then also to the OD of the cutting thread, and in some cases the length.

I was hoping to minimize the material (wood) removal.

 

My test worked, but I will need to remove the "tang" as if you continue to turn the rod after it contacts the tang the insert threads out of the hole.

Of course there will eventually be a frame covering the hole so the rod will only thread in so far and have to stop.

In my application, I used a somewhat backwards installation as I cannot cut the proper size thread in the wood (as I am a cheap ol' coote).

Normally they feed in the same side as the screw or rod, but mine in in the opposite side to create the retaining shelf for clamping.

 

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On 2/5/2020 at 1:42 PM, AON said:

I took advantage of some recovery time (pinched nerve in my lower back) to go through a bunch of the newspaper articles.

(I am much better today)

Over this time (my last push) I concentrated on the 1700's and (just now) completed that era.

Only 497 more pages to complete 1800's  (originally almost 1000 pages).

Attached is a PDF of the index of my transcriptions at this time for those interested.

This is far more info than any book I've read on this ship and her travels.

HMS Bellerophon - Part 2 - Newspaper Articles and Letters - INDEX.pdf 145.3 kB · 7 downloads

Alan, very impressive the list of articles you read. I hope you are planning on writing a book!

Mark

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A book. 

It would be the worst selling book ever!

I would think there are very few people willing to pay for such a thing.

Wouldn't you rather just get it for free?

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As a picture is worth a thousand words I thought I'd try to explain it another way.

 

In the photo below I show the Helicoil thread insert (in a stepped hole) versus a hex nut (set in a customized pocket).

I have also drawn in the rising wood (top), keel, and false keel (below) at the end of the block of wood.

The hex nut and helicoil are buried in the rising wood.

The hex nut is as thick as the rising wood so it necessitates the removal of a great deal more wood than the helicoil.

 

In my mind it is cleaner and simpler.

More rising wood is left in place.

The frames glue to the rising wood... so it would be nice if some wood were there.

 

The hex nut is entrapped and so cannot spin.

With the tang removed from the helicoil it does not move.

So both are equal in that sense.

 

The hex nut has 3.6 threads and the helicoil has 7.

 

4 - helicoil versus hex nut.jpg

Edited by AON

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For my models, it never takes long to file down two opposite faces of the hex nut so there is some 'meat' left on both sides of the keel. Each to their own....

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Mounted the model on the travelling base.

Used a heavier clamp at one end as a counter balance as I made adjustments to align the drill bit with the mark then clamped it to the drill press base.

Drilled the holes.  #29 thru, #15 1/4" deep.

Set it on the build table and drilled thru the table.

Made up lengths of threaded rod, chased the threads after cutting the lengths (borrowed my son's tap and die set for this).

Installed the helicoil inserts as described earlier.

Now it sets up and cures.

I left one of the original wooden clamping bars on the table as I can set the keel to it/align to it, and it holds the plan in place on the table.

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

4.jpg

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Just had my 19th eye injection on Tuesday so I've not been in my shop since mid last week in a effort to keep fine dust out of my eye so it might not aggravate the recovery... and it seems to have worked.

So I spent the time at my computer researching where all the little things go on the bowsprit and jib boom I made earlier.

I have been frustrated to no end by all the contradictory information out there.

 

My go too books (in order of precedent) are Ree's, Steels, The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860, The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships, and Rigging Period Ship Models.

I have saved a number of reference RMG model images ... having spent the morning going through about 170 of those on site as was recommended to me.

I also searched some paintings and sketches but they didn't seem to tell me much.   Possibly it is the recent needle trauma, or the cataracts... did I mention I have those too!

Geeze retirement is fun.

 

As I will be building her as I imagined she looked when launched there will be no dolphin striker, and I will have both the spritsail yard and the spritsail topsail yard as all is clear for the latter sail.

 

I've checked my drawing gammoning alignment with my gammoning holes and they align very well but my holes are too short to receive the nine to eleven turns of 2-1/2" diameter rope, so these need to be elongated in the correct direction at some point in the future.

 

Tomorrow I will start to mark all the lines on my drawing with references to the particular source and images so I do not have to re-learn it all again down the road... and all is in a binder to keep it together.

 

Monday I will start sanding frames again... and in the next month or so make some cleats, saddles, hoops, yards, and a fairlead for the bowsprit and jib boom that are stored away.

 

Here is the drawing I've made.

my dwg.JPG

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