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HMS Bellerophon 1786 by AON – scale 1:64 – 74 gun 3rd Rate Man of War, Arrogant Class


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Best of luck to you sir with your surgery

 

I question for the group-

 

Is anyone aware of any 3D photos, sketches, etc of MADE masts for the individual pieces of the mast (spindles, fishes, etc) where there could have been as many as 16 individual pieces ((according to Seppings). I have Steel, Fincham and Crothers' publications as references. Anyone aware of any others with GOOD diagrams or 3-D views. I just cant get my head around the 2d diagrams of the pieces with all the scarfs, cutouts, etc in them. Don't need help with the fittings yet, just the individual pieces of the mast itself. Has anyone ever done a DETAILED model of a made mast. I would also be interested in any videos of the same such as on youtube, etc but I havent been able to locate any for multi-piece made masts.

 

Any help is appreciated.

 

Dan

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I hope all goes well, Alan.  May the surgeon have steady hands and you a fast recovery.

 

Dan, ask your question in the Masting Area.  I think more eyes will see it.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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Thank you for the well wishes everyone.

 

Dan

I've seen some 2D drawings of the mast pieces and stepped sections but no 3D renderings.  I know some people have some trouble understanding more complex 2D drawings... and I am an avid fan of 3D models inserted into a 2D drawings .  IMHO they add exceptional value at no extra cost!

Please let me know if you stumble across a model.  If not I might have a stab at it down the road.

 

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

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Best wishes for a successful surgery, Alan. 

 

I recall seeing a 'take apart' model of a mast. I thought perhaps it was at Greenwich, but can find no photo of it. It must have been on display at the Science Museum, Kensington, before they rolled up the ship model section and put it away.

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

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Good morning everyone.  I had my eye surgery (cataract removal and new lens implant) last Friday and it has been amazing.  The actual surgery was over before I realized it had started.   The most painful part was when they removed the tape holding the IV plug in the back of my hand just prior to my discharge from the hospital.  I cannot recall my vision being so vivid and crisp.  Yesterday I went to the optometrist to have the lens removed from the frame as wearing my glasses with both lenses gave me a headache and simply ruined the view.  I get the other eye done on the 25th of September.

 

Meanwhile I am not allowed to do quite a few things and one is to work in the shop... a sawdust issue.

 

So I've decided to work on my deck templates.  There are five in total: roundhouse, forecastle, quarter deck, upper deck, and gun deck.  I spent a part of yesterday refreshing myself with Fusion 360 and my 3D ship model.  I pulled out my Museum plans and measured the height of each deck at their extreme upper surface forward and aft location.  Then I copied my model and sliced it at the quarter deck so I had the outside perimeter of the deck (inside of the hull) identified.  The result is below.  Now I need to layout the deck framing to create the templates.

 

1925942576_0-hullslicedatqtrdeck.jpg.7d7f74f9fe48ba58663de8d649654de0.jpg

Prior to my surgery I added cyclone dust separators to my two shop vacuums.  I found a supplier that stated the minimum kW rating required to work and then checked my shop vacuums HP rating (conversion to metric was necessary).  The filters were constantly clogged and emptying them was messy job.  The cyclone separator spins the dust around the outside cone of the housing to separate the dust with centrifugal force.  It removes 98% of the dust per the specifications.  The last 2%, a fine dust that is too light to drop out flows through to the vacuum filter... there was nothing seen on the floor of the vacuum canister.

 

  1925730553_1-cycloneseparatorkits.jpg.5cf2c5ac2d1418bd72eae5a6f5489fd9.jpg

 

 

1095494392_2-fittings.jpg.110dfbddafe4648e800b44e64ed9dfb7.jpg

I looked at a few YouTube videos before I began the process.  The sparators were supplied with two couplings and hose clamps but as they are metric and my hoses are not I needed to purchase some additional fittings (flexible rubber couplings and hose barb fittings from Canadian Tire), plus I used some adhesive backed 1/4" rubber gasket material (McMaster-Carr) where the fit was still sloppy.  I built a mobile deck for the smaller vacuum that moves around the shop, added casters that were horded from old tables or chairs, and a wall shelf for the stationary vacuum that is connected to the Lee Valley Tools dust collection system that was gifted to me by a good friend.  I also bought four 5 gallon pails and two lids from RONA.  One pail acts as a "cup holder" for the other pail, and the lid was cut out and drilled to mount the cyclone separator.  The "cup holders" are screwed down and a hole is drilled through the deck to break the suction that normal makes it difficult to pull stacked pails apart.

 

They work like a charm!

Photos below and also a short video of centrifugal force at work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 - moble deck.jpg

4 - cup holder.jpg

6 - lid.jpg

7 - mobile unit.jpg

8 - stationary unit.jpg

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

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1 hour ago, AON said:

I had my eye surgery (cataract removal and new lens implant) last Friday and it has been amazing. 

Clapping Hands on GoogleClapping Hands on GoogleClapping Hands on GoogleClapping Hands on GoogleClapping Hands on GoogleClapping Hands on GoogleClapping Hands on GoogleClapping Hands on GoogleClapping Hands on GoogleClapping Hands on Google

 

And the workshop news ain't bad either.

🌻

STAY SAFE

 

A model shipwright and an amateur historian are heads & tails of the same coin

current builds:

HMS Berwick 1775, 1/192 scratchbuild; a Slade 74 in the Navy Board style

Mediator sloop, 1/48 - an 18th century transport scratchbuild 

French longboat - CAF - 1/48, on hold

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That's great news on the surgery, Alan.  And the dust remove unit looks great.  

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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My progress with Quarter Deck layout.

 

From the page 15 of the contract I found the quarter deck was rounded (cambered) 8-1/2 inches (21.6 cm) for deck water runoff.  The beams were sided (thickness forward to aft) 9-1/2" (24.1 cm) and moulded (thickness or depth top to bottom) 8" (22.8 cm).

 

At 1:64 scale these numbers are as follows:

rounded 8-1/2" (21.6 cm) = 0.133" (3.4mm)

sided 9-1/2" (24.1 cm) = 0.148" (3.8 mm)

moulded 8" (22.8 cm = 0.125" (3.2 mm)

 

First I made a copy of my "master model" and renamed it Quarter Deck.  I worked on this copy.

 

I drew my outlining lines along the perimeter and around the mast, extruded my deck slab, then sketched the rounding or camber at the forward facing end of the slab and cut that out.  When I started to outline the forward most beam I noticed the main mast as compared to the reference plan was missing.  I had it too far forward.  This was corrected on the master model and the location of the other masts were verified.  Then the quarter deck copy was replaced and the slab had to be re-created.  There is always time to do it over.

These are the results.  Now I sketch in the beams with one lodging and hanging knee at each end as per the museum plan and the contract.

 

I will post again when I have this one done.

1 - QD framing slice + slab.jpg

2 - QD framing slice + slab.jpg

3 - QD slab rounded.jpg

4 - QD Plan.jpg

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

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I got the model done. Just need to import it to a sheet at 1:64 scale for the template.

three pics below

1- a layout with a mess of dimensions

2- same but cleaner looking layout with the dimensions hidden.  You can see the shaded areas that will be cut away.

3 - the end result.  I roughed in the hanging and lodging knee as blocks in the bottom right corner and just the hanging knees in the top right corner.

 I'll get the drawing template made than do the roundhouse deck beams.

 

1 - qtr deck beam cutout sketch.jpg

2 - qtr deck beam cutout sketch.jpg

3 - qtr deck beam cutouts.jpg

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

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Generated the dwg ...but the program jumbled a couple of lines to the right at the main mast location. I've no idea why.

If I cannot get it to work properly I can sketch them in with a pencil.

Capture.JPG

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

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Played with it some this morning and this is the best I can get. 

Still has some lines that should not be there. 

Also I know the knee legs are tapered  with rounded ends.  I can do this when they are built.

 

screen capture and downloadable PDF below.

 

Moving on to the Round House deck.

 

 

6 - Quarter Deck template.jpg

 

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

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Round House Deck template

Round House Deck template.jpg

 

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

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The Forecastle deck beam layout gave me a small headache.

 

First the rounding or camber was said to be 7-1/2" on page 2 of the contract, and then it is 6-1/2" on page 17.  I focused far too much on this... once I came to my senses and realized my scale of 1:64 scale build difference was 0.015" I just picked the larger number.

 

Next I didn't understand what the cat beam was.  It is said to be 2'-4" broad (wide or sided) and 10" deep.  I discovered it is directly below the cat tail (the part of the cathead that crosses the deck athwart ships at the head.  I found it in Rees's Plate IV, and also in The Anatomy of Nelson's Ship's page 79, figure 44.  As it is a mere 2" (0.03" to build scale) thicker than the forecastle deck beams (8" moulded) I decided to ignore the 10" as no one will see or notice it.

 

I started aft and worked forward with my layout.  When I got to the mast I realized the roughly measured beam spacing did not fit the space on the model.  I closed up the first three beams aft from 36" to 24" and things lined up at the mast.  That is two feet missing from the plan.

 

Just beyond or forward of the mast is a stairwell.  The space (a large gap) between the beam forward of the stairwell and the cat beam was not there.  I measured the deck plan and then the model and there was a five foot difference.  My model deck length is 43'-4" and the contract specifies 42'-9", a mere 7" difference or 0.11" at my build scale.   The museum plan deck measures roughly 48'-4" long.... the missing 5 feet!

 

The plan clearly shows carlings (fore/aft joining beams) in only two locations: 1) at mast, and 2) under the belfry.  I added them at the gratings, stove pipe and stairwell openings. 

So this is what I have. (02 Sept 2020 replaced image and dwg with updated version)

 

 

 

 

screen Capture.JPG

 

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

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Getting near the end of the Upper Deck Beam Layout.

Looking at various references that don't agree with each other plus my NMM deck plan drawing of HMS Elephant is too long for that ship.

I've yet to add the Knees... and then check it again.

Here is what I have so far...  (image updated 13 SEP 2020)

 

Capture.JPG

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

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Hi Alan,

Just for fun comparison, here is my reconstruction of the Bellona upper deck. Now I am going to have to remember where I got the carling pattern, which steps towards the bow and stern, also the curved beam just forward of the rudder opening...

 

Mark

 

1230698732_ScreenShot2020-09-06at7_40_56PM.thumb.png.635c6994928088fe0d14a967cbb6d17d.png

 

 

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Thank you for the beam plan Mark.

I've copied it to my reference library... now I just have to remember it is there.

 

I had seen some of the different features in some other plans.  This is different than what Conway drew in his book.  I am not surprised as there have been a few other items noted.

 

The thing that really throws me is that I specifically bought the Elephant deck plans (a sister ship) from the NMM and they don't fit the ship for length!

Having spent 40 years in engineering I am puzzled as to why that major inconsistency should confuse me!  :default_wallbash:

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

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Hi Guys do you mind if I crash the party. What you have put on the log just goes to show us that the decks were all done just a bit different and like your's self's it really hard to figure them out. On Alfred it shows that she has one center deck beam with two arms per side but the two most forward beams have the same as what you show for your deck's. Now coming up with hanging and lodging kness, now that is were the real fun starts.  Am using Alfred deck plan to lay out the beams but using Hector to fill in the knee's and the way the aft part was laid out. Now on the carling and ledges am using the contract's to figure out how they were laid out. Hoping that maybe am on the right track to how they may of been done. Hay Mark, Alan  your plan's of the upper gun deck is out standing but have a question and you may of already address it. Mark the carling you have forward of you mizzen mast may get in the way of the fitting's for the rudder ropes which go up to the ships wheel. When I work Alfred's out I used a x set of carlings with sheaves to guide the ropes up. Of course with out looking back am not sure if this was done the same way. Seems French way of doing this was one piece attach to the beam with two sheaves at different angles I believe.  Mark when you said Conway what book are you talking about? You know me I just love books. Thanks guy for letting me in on the party😊Gary

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DSC_0371.JPG

DSC_0201.JPG

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Hi Alan. I noticed that you have three carlings per side from the fore hatch to the  second beam aft of the stem and was wondering if this was done  in Elephant's time. From what I have read in the contracts I have it would of been something like what Mark shows on his. The contracts I have says that their was only two per side from the fore hatch to the stem. They did have one in the middle from the fore hatch to the back of the fore mast partner with the carling stopping at the aft beam of the mast partner.  Believe it was called the furnace/stove carling and was 12 inches wide but don't hold me to the 12 inches. This one was put up underneith those beams and believe it was set in to the beams by 2 inches. They also installed short carling on top of that  long carling between the beams  and filled the space above that carling.  If elephant was different would love to know how they did it during her time frame. You can see that carling in dashed line running below the beams in the 6th photo in the Hector plan above. You probably already know this so forgive me if you do. Thank you sir. Gary

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Every ship was slightly different, even in the same class. The 'as launched' plans are accurate for the specific ship, as a record of its actual construction. This would be very useful when it came time to repair the vessel.

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

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First let me make it clear that I am a beginner at ship modelling and every day is a new and steep learning curve for me. Yes I have chosen to dive into the deep end.

 

I am very grateful for all the help I get on the forum (yes, you and you and ...), from members of my local club (Model Shipwrights of Niagara), and from various collections of magazines I've been lucky enough to acquire for a short period before gifting them to someone else in our club, including the older NR Journals I've been given and those I've collected since becoming a member.  I feel that  must be the luckiest guy in the world!

 

The book I mentioned was "Anatomy of the Ship - The 74-gun Ship Bellona" by Brian Lavery  published by Conway Maritime Press Ltd, ISBN 0 85177 368 0.

My error when I suggested it was Conway's book... it is Brian Lavery's. Although it is said to have errors I find it a great reference to understanding and identifying items.  I just need other sources to verify what he shows me.

 

The NMM plan No. J2938 of HMS Elephant shows nothing in the way of carlings, ledgers and knees.

I have the contracts of both Bellerophon (No. ADT 0009) and Elephant (No. ADT 0030) which are identical except for some notations in the margins.

I completely transcribed (typed out) the contract with my explanations, definitions, and references to my library books and pages/images/descriptions so I can find them again down the road.  Having done that, I find I've forgotten most of what I had learnt so thank goodness I noted where to find it again.

 

I have REES's Naval Architecture (1819-20) book with plates, and I have copies of Steel's Plates which seem identical that I reference.  I've study a number of other plans on the NMM website and builds here on this forum of which Mark's Bellona and Gary's (your) Alfred are my go to builds at the moment.

 

You are correct regarding the carlings under the furnace.  They are specified at being 12 inches broad and 12 inches deep.  I've drawn them at 12 " broad, and the depth of which 2" are to project above the upper deck beams, which I did not model as I will be referring to the contract when building and installing these.  The same Idea for the coming carlings ... but at 1:64 scale who will notice a sliver of difference.

 

I will re-read the contract carling location descriptions for the upper deck.

Thank you

 

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

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Thanks Alan for the info. . As far as being a beginner at ship modelling have a deep feeling that we are both in the same boat and learn a lot from watching your build log  as many others do.  Do believe you are far from a beginner good sir and thank you for helping the student.  Gary

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Dan

Gary reminded me about old magazine articles and the short story is that while reviewing my collection of those this morning I discovered something you might be interested in.

I sent you a PM regarding building an 18th century made mast!

Alan

 

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

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Gary, thanks for the note regarding how to handle the tiller ropes. I would have been in some difficulty getting around a central carling a few months down the road. Isn't it great to share ideas on this website!

 

Mark

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5 hours ago, SJSoane said:

Gary, thanks for the note regarding how to handle the tiller ropes. I would have been in some difficulty getting around a central carling a few months down the road. Isn't it great to share ideas on this website!

 

Mark

Mark being able to exchange  information and note's  with your self and other's is outstanding and I for one really like sharing what I know to any one who is open to it. Being able to give some thing back is my way of thanking others who have given this to me.  

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Updated the image of the Upper Deck Beams in post #1096 dated September 5.

Below is the Gun Deck Beam image.

I will not be doing the Orlop deck as it will not be seen very well.

The five beams at the Waist will be made insitu following the Quarter Deck rounding at 8-1/2" (0.133" at 1:64 build scale).

 

Mark: FYI - my upper deck NMM plan shaped tiller hole allows 30° of travel in each direction

 

 

screen capture - gun deck.JPG

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

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Sweet looking gundeck, Alan!

 

I'll be interested to see how far your tiller can swing, assuming the sweep and gooseneck are up in-between the beams as I see in the Dorsetshire plan. It is the gooseneck hitting the side of the aft beam that ultimately limits the rudder swing in the Bellona,  not the size of the rudder hole in my case.

 

Mark

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