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HMS Vanguard by RMC - FINISHED - Amati/Victory Models - scale 1:72

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Hi B.E.  Thanks for your reply.  I'll follow up your advice.

 

Regards

 

Bob

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hi   i have the proxxon lathe  and their is a 12mm hole that goes through the head stock so that you can turn longer lenths

      when you use  the three jaw chuck the lathe is very good bit of kit

      regard george.

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Hello again Bob, here's a couple of mock-up pics of how the set up looks.

 

006.JPG

 

009.JPG

 

One of the attractions of the DB250 for me is the compactness, don't need a lot of room to work it, and it handles most of my modelling jobs.

 

My idea when I set it up is to have a detachable baseboard for the extension bed, or perhaps have it hinged in some way to fold back behind the machine board or maybe beneath it.

 

That way I can retain the benefit of the small size, but extend it to around 30" workable length when required.

 

I don't know if flex would become an issue at that length but I have worked on 8mm dowel up to 18" in length without a problem.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

 

 

 

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George: thanks for that. As I said, I know nothing about lathes and I presume the headstock is the support at the end of the bed.?

 

B.E. I have tried Axminster with no joy so far.  There is no response for Part PRO00016 nor for various combinations of 'replacement bed for micro lathe DB250' nor Part270202-31.  I have also contacted two suppliers in Australia with the same key words (none of them are listed on their websites) and am awaiting for replies. Your photo certainly suggests the larger bed would be ideal.

 

Just  a note on progress - I have finally finished the yellow 'stripes'.  It took five coats of paint to give a good finish.  I will wait a couple of days to make sure the paint is completely dry before masking ready for the black.  I am quite apprehensive about effectively masking all the decorations and especially around the steps.

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Bob, the part isn't listed on site, and I had to speak to Axminster on the telephone to order the item.

 

The bed is listed in the manual that comes with the lathe; it is 27020-31  (Maschinenbett)

 

I initiated my enquiry with Proxxon Tools UK, who put me onto Axminster.

 

ps the headstock is the left end with the chuck on it, there is a hole through the centre of the machine that allows the work to protrude out the end. The Tailstock  on the right travels along the bed  to fix the work piece.

 

Look forward to seeing your completed bee stripes in due course :)

 

B.E.

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B.E.  Thanks for the clarification and for all your trouble.  An Australian supplier got back to me and after I explained your second email, promised to contact Proxxon.  He thought using the spare bed to extend the overall length of the bed to be a wonderful idea.

 

I'm just waiting now to see what price they wish to extort for both the lathe and the extra bed.  It may be cheaper to order the whole lot from Axminster.  There, I presume I'll avoid your VAT and certainly our GST.

 

Regards Bob

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B.E. Joy.  One of the Australian suppliers has given me a price of A$69 for the extra bed.  He also asked if I wanted chisels and chucks.  I presume there is a chuck supplied with the lathe.   I note that on his website that there is a list of accessories including a 3 and a 4 jaw chuck.  Are the chisels and/or either of the chucks worth getting?

 

I had in mind simply tapering the dowels with a rasp or sandpaper.  Any advice would be welcome.

 

Bob

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Hi Bob,

 

The lathe comes with a set of collets to hold the work in the headstock, and a faceplate for larger items.

 

I did in fact buy both the 3 and 4 jaw chucks, and the drill chuck which fits in the tail stock. The  4 jaw chuck is made of plastic, a little kinder to wood perhaps and slightly more versatile than the self centreing  3 jaw chuck. I have used both, and I thought while I'm at it.......

 

I've not used the drill chuck as yet but I suppose it will be useful if I need to drill holes in the end of the piece, but again I thought while I'm at it...

 

I didn't buy the chisels so I can't comment on the quality etc, but chisels would be necessary if you intend to do some turning as opposed to just tapering.

 

I used various grades of  sandpaper to taper masts and it works quite well. I make a card template of the taper at the quarters and use this with my calipers to check progress. There are details on my Pegasus log of the method I use.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi B.E. Thank you very much for your help.  I've  ordered the lathe, the extra bed and the 4-jaw chuck.  I'll see if I need anything else later.

 

I only recently realized you are building the Pegasus.  What a wonderful job you're doing.  Your log, and those of AEW and Fakejohnbull (Mitsuaki - it's such a shame his log has been lost ) have been enormously helpful.

 

All the best

Bob

Edited by RMC

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I wish you joy Bob in your new acquisition to come, I hope it does the business. 

 

Thanks for your comment about Pegasus, I am getting an enormous pleasure from bashing her about, glad she's been of help to you. :)

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

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hi  bob      i think you will find the three jaw chuck much the better one,  its self centering and the four jaw one is independent if you dont get it right it will

                wobble all over the place.  to help not to mark the wood i role it in two or three  turns of heavy paper and fit that in the jaws of the chuck

                and it will not mark the wood hope this helps

regards george

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Somehow these got out of order. the comment appears below I am now in the process of putting the black stripes on the model. The masking has proved difficult and very time-consuming.  I hope to have finished the process in a week or so.

 

post-823-0-60925700-1370133052_thumb.jpg

 

post-823-0-02603900-1370133138_thumb.jpg

 

post-823-0-13600700-1370133195_thumb.jpg

Edited by RMC

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I have finall got around to putting up some pictures of one of the recent storms we have had on the coast south of Sydney.  They don't really do the conditions justice.  I would certainly not like to be out there in an 18th century sailing ship

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I think I have used the four jaw chuck more than the three jaw simply because my topmasts have been made from square stock, and for round stock the collets take care of dowel up to 10mm dia.

 

The four jaw is certainly more fiddly but I have found that by closing the jaws evenly and then opening by degrees to allow insertion of the workpiece off the lathe, I have better control. Final tightening is then done with the chuck screwed on.

 

B.E.

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Hi B.e.

 

I've been away for a few days.

 

I have now received the lathe and set it up ready for the extra bed that will be delivered at the end of next month (I hope). I got the 3 jaw chuck as well but in the light of your advice, I guess I'd better order the 4 jaw chuck now.

 

I discovered over the weekend that the 12 mm dowel supplied with the kit is 500mm long, not the 800mm as specified. 500mm is insufficient to make both the bowsprit and the main mast. Buying the extra dowel is not especially expensive but the postage is pure extortion.  I am quite peeved.

 

More and more it seems as if square stock is the way to go, though obtaining appropriate wood of the right dimensions is a problem.

 

Somehow the narration for the two photos below seems to be out of place as is this entire post.  I have no idea what happened. (See comments on the difficulty of fitting the foremast into the holes provided on the model.)

 

post-823-0-02192500-1370928335_thumb.jpg

 

post-823-0-79407200-1370928616_thumb.jpg

 

The other problem are the two cross-sections for the foremast shown on the plans. The lower cross-section seems OK  with the 2 flats accommodating the foremast cheeks (part 103).  The upper cross-section is apparently 12mm in diameter (the mast is 10mm) with 2 flats 8mm wide (I have written the dimensions on the plans). Incidentally, these two cross-sections are identical to those for the corresponding positions on the main mast.  Both look to me to be errors in the plans.

 

Any help would be appreciated

 

 

post-823-0-59210900-1370928387_thumb.jpg

 

post-823-0-95774700-1370928435_thumb.jpg

 

 

Edited by RMC

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Making the foremast has not gone smoothly. When I put the dowel in the hole provided, two pieces of the framework prevented it from going right to the bottom of the 'well'.  Whether I have done something wrong in putting the framework together (there's no other evidence of that) of this one of the little oversights in the plans, I suppose is immaterial.  It required me to trim the bottom of the dowel to fit.  This really is a nuisance as parts of the mast have flat surfaces that must be parallel fore and aft and must match the flats I have cut to fit in the hole.

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Hi Bob, those plans look very similar in layout to those of my Pegasus.

 

The upper mast part, that area above the stop of the hounds,ie where the top of the cheeks and bibs are fitted  is the masthead and should be square, or slightly broader athwartships than in the fore/aft direction (Steel)

 

In the case of Pegasus the transition is from 8mm dia at the hounds, with the sides flatted off to take the cheeks, and with the head squared to 6mm to form the masthead. The square section is indicated on the plan.

 

Is there perhaps a  note in the kit narrative  indicating the use of strip to build up the masthead to the full square section?

 

B.E.

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Hi B.E. Alas, it pays to read the instructions - though they are (to me) also moderately confusing. It seemed to me from the cross-section shown on the plan that the mast above the cheeks etc is circular and 8mm in diameter. Oh well ... As I now have to buy some more 12mm dowel as Amati short-changed me, I may as well get some spare stuff with which to experiment.

 

My main concern in doing the square sections is lining them up correctly, and unlike you I do not have a beautiful milling machine to do the job with accuracy.  I am tempted to buy one, but having just bought the lathe and a Dremel drill press, my wife may retaliate and buy another sewing machine for her quilting. This would make it a very expensive milling machine indeed.

 

In the meantime I will cut off the offending circular piece above the cheeks and attach a piece of square with a piece of dowel inserted in the square and a hole in the dowel to receive it. I am still searching for a supply of good quality square of the appropriate dimensions.

 

I am still painting the Nelson checker.  The masking  I find is both time-consuming and rather tedious.  I wish Nelson had kept his decorating ideas to himself.

 

This will be the third time I have described these pictures.  Maybe it all appears somewhere else in this log - who knows.  It is very frustrating; and why this is attached to an earlier post is also a mystery.  These are just progress pictures of the painting of the dreaded Nelson checker - not yet touched up.

 

post-823-0-16149000-1372141325_thumb.jpg

post-823-0-67333300-1372141388_thumb.jpg

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post-823-0-61289400-1372140301_thumb.jpg

 

While waiting for paint to dry (not a spectator sport) I have experimented with my new toys. As I earlier wrote, correctly lining up the flat surfaces of the various masts are a concern.  For the foremast I have put some square boxwood onto the dowel supplied in the kit.  I have drilled holes in both the square piece and the dowel and then 'lined-up' the square by clamping a straight piece of strip to the square and lining it up so that it is parallel to centre line of the model. 

 

I have initially left the dowel long so that it is easy to make sure that it is indeed vertical.
 

post-823-0-62987200-1372142320_thumb.jpg

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post-823-0-09577400-1372142725_thumb.jpg

post-823-0-64622800-1372142819_thumb.jpg

 

I have had plenty of time waiting for paint to dry, so while in painting mode I have started painting the decorations. I won't attach the stern facia until I have done the coppering.  Icidentally has anyone some advice on whether it is best to attach the decorations to the facia before fitting the facia to the model?

post-823-0-62919600-1372142895_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by RMC

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Again I have no idea what happened to the post I just wrote. Here are some progress pictures of the dreaded Nelson checker.  The painting shown in the photos has not yet been touched up.  The Tamiya tape gives a very clean line between the colours and touching up is comparatively easy, and gives an almost perfect finish.

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Nice work... I just noticed your question about the stern fascia... better to attach it to the hull first, then add the decorations. If there is any difference between the curve of the decorations and the curve of the transom, you risk either having to fight to put the fascia on, or having the decorations pop back off.. or worse...

 

Andy

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Andy: thanks for the advice - I'll take it.

 

Arthur: No, I'm not going to fit the masts before coppering.  I spend quite a bit of time away from home, and as the model is at a stage when it is easily damaged, I'm using the masts as a 'mobile' project to take away with me. Thanks for the tip regarding the mizzen.

 

Regards

 

Bob

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I have now attached the square boxwood to the lower dowel and sanded off the dowel to receive the cheeks.  The kit provides caps with round holes.  I have made the larger hole square  following BE's log as a guide.  The odd thing now is that the plans specify a square section for the portion of the topmast that goes into the cap.  So I suppose the smaller hole in the cap should be also 'squared', but in every other cap I have seen the hole to receive the topmast is round. I am inclined to ignore the plan and go with the round.  Comments/advice is welcome.

 

post-823-0-94580800-1372232606_thumb.jpg

 

post-823-0-49967600-1372232660_thumb.jpg

 

The cap is in two parts taped together, and dry-fitted.

 

post-823-0-02660100-1372232707_thumb.jpg

 

post-823-0-89691800-1372232783_thumb.jpg

 

 

Edited by RMC

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Woops. I just realized my mistake regarding the small round hole in the cap. Of course it should be round.  It doesn't receive the topmast at all.  It provides support further up the topmast.  Oh well....

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Re the Caps Bob, I think you may have picked up the wrong idea. The smaller hole is to fit over the mast head, the larger hole is for the Topmast. In the kits (Pegasus as well) Amati leave the hole round, but the mast head has a section reduced in size to fit this.

 

More properly a tenon is formed on the topmast head to take the cap; the tenon is quite a bit smaller than the section of the masthead so the square hole that I formed to take the tenon is much smaller than the other round hole for the Topmast.

 

Althought the section of the Topmast between the heeling and the cap is eight square the hole for the mast is round and is sufficiently large to allow the hounds at the top of the Topmast to slip thro' the cap so it may be seated atop the eight square section and fit on the Lower masthead tenon.

 

It looks as tho' you have made the mortise in the cap to fit the full section of the masthead rather than forming a smaller tenon.

 

I think you will also find that the forward hole to take the Topmast will need enlarging to allow passage of the topmast.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

 

 

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Arthur and BE: Thanks for your replies.  They saved me from making a large mistake.

 

I have filled in the large square hole I made in the cap so that it is now 5mm square ready to receive the lower mast.  I have enlarged the small hole to the dimensions of the topmast shown on the plan - about 6.5mm (I can further enlarge it if necessary). While the resulting cap looks a bit ratty, once it is cleaned up a bit and is painted it will be fine. The pictures show the two halves taped together.  I would appreciate your comments on whether or not this does the trick.

 

post-823-0-86898200-1372319060_thumb.jpg

 

post-823-0-69459700-1372319086_thumb.jpg

Edited by RMC

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That should do the trick Bob, I didn't realise that the cap came in halves on the kit, which incidently is how they were fixed certainly on larger ships at the time.

 

As you say once they are painted up they will be fine.

 

I don't know how you are planning to do your rigging, but if the shrouds are to be fitted on the model then it is better to not fix the cap until they are fitted.

 

B.E

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I do plan to rig it - without sails.  I just looked up 'shrouds' (you can see how much I know about ships) and can see why it will be far easier to rig them before the cap etc., go on.

 

Bob

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Having redone the cap, I have now adjusted the top of the mast to receive it. As i wrote earlier, the cap will later be cleaned up and painted. (Question for BE: your caps have rounded corners - is that the generally correct way or is it unique to Pegasis?) I have also sanded the sides of the mast ready for the cheeks.  Here they are taped on.

 

post-823-0-18505800-1372572629_thumb.jpg

 

post-823-0-06683500-1372572732_thumb.jpg

 

post-823-0-21163600-1372572672_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

In the meantime I have finally finished painting the stripes for the nelson checker.  I painted each one separately so that I could get the depth of each stripe accurately, and each one took at least a day to dry ready for sanding. All told it has taken nearly a month - not that I'm bitter. There is still some very minor touching up to do, but it has turned out well.  The yellow needed 5 coats, and the black four.  I have found with the Humbrol enamel that it is best to thin it by about 5-10% so that it goes on smoothly and without brush strokes.  The following pictures are a bit rough, but I will take some better ones during the touching up process.

 

post-823-0-15948900-1372573494_thumb.jpg

 

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post-823-0-56578300-1372573578_thumb.jpg

 

post-823-0-00452100-1372573621_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by RMC

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Hi Bob according to Lees the corners of the caps were given a  round up until 1820 this accords with the drawings by Steel in his 1794 book.

 

Fine finish you have achieved on the 'bee lines' Bob, the last time I did a Victory model, it took months before I was satisfied with the position and width of the black lines, they are very tricky to get right.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

Edited by Blue Ensign

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While away I've had the chance to play with the Proxxon lathe.  It's a really lovely little machine. Below are some pictures of work-in-progress: the jib boom; the fore topmast and the main topmast. Unfortunately the photos don't show the detail very well. 

 

The octagonal sections have turned out quite acceptably.   In these cases I have first, made a square section, then turning  that square at 45 degrees, made another 'square' with the same dimension as the first which then trims off the edges of the original square so creating an octagon.  I check the width of each octagonal face by drawing a large circle on paper then drawing rays from the centre of the circle at 45 degrees.  I then draw circles of the required diameter of the mast I am working on, and measure the distance between where two rays intersect the circle.  This gives the width of the octagonal faces.

 

post-823-0-34626400-1373439093_thumb.jpg

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post-823-0-60442000-1373439016_thumb.jpg

post-823-0-39438100-1373438978_thumb.jpg

 

I have been worried about  making the square sections at each end of  the masts 'line up' so that the caps etc are properly aligned. My solution is to cut the square sections as accurately as I can (I  use a heavy craft knife, then a file), but very slightly larger than is specified.  I then clamp a piece of wood strip to the sides of the two sections lining them up to see if the two sides are parallel. If they are a little out of parallel, I have sufficient room to make any slight adjustment that may be needed.  It seems to work, though I envy BE's milling machine.

post-823-0-04948000-1373440535_thumb.jpg

post-823-0-17213200-1373440579_thumb.jpg

 

 

Edited by RMC

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