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HMS Vanguard by RMC - FINISHED - Amati/Victory Models - scale 1:72

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Ah, I see. :)  In the context though it may be gilding the lily a bit.

 

As it will be painted over I will overlap at the join.  Only you and I will know.

 

Bob.

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I have made up a false keel and it looks as if it will finish the coppering off really well. Thanks for the suggestion Jason and thanks BE for the help. One by-product of applying the false keel has meant not so much trouble needs to be taken to make sure the bent plates from each side meet meet neatly in the middle of the keel. The false keel will cover them nicely.  All of this should be finished in a day or so.

 

I am now concerned about what to do with the area of the stern post close to the rudder. - whether to put plates on it, paint it copper or leave it painted black.  There doesn't appear to be any mention of this in the instructions.  I'm inclined to leave it black.  Suggestions would be gratefully received.

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The stern post face should really be coppered. One solution is to use self adhesive copper tape scored to the plate size and marked with one of those little wheels that simulate nail heads. Being very thin it doesn't show much of an edge, as in practice the copper plates were bent around the stern post and lipped over the plates that run down the stern post not just butted to the adjacent plates.

 

I did this when I coppered my schooner Pickle. 

 

Copper tape is also useful to cover the recesses in the rudder where the pintles fit.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

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BE and Arthur: Yes, upon reflection painting is not a good idea.  I think I will use the plates as I did for the stem, though I have some concerns that the plates on the  back of the stern post and the front of the rudder may leave insufficient space between them.  Obtaining the copper tape will take some time (it doesn't appear to be readily available in Australia), especially at this time of the year, and I just want to get the coppering finished.

 

Bob

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Bob - just sharing my (limited) experience.  The I opted to just use copper paint on the interior surfaces, it really is not visible at all but may be slight different on larger ship.  The Admiralty paint have flakes of copper in them so they should supposedly oxidize along with the regular plates.

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Arthur: did you put plates on both the back of the stern post and the front of the keel? If so, was the gap between the two sufficient?

 

Bob

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Hi Jason, as you can see I have decided (with misgivings) to use copper plates. I will however use the copper paint in the recesses of the rudder and hope it all works out.

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Thanks for that Arthur.  Your photos of the rudder will really help.

 

I have finally finished the coppering of the ship.  While I was careful with the CA when doing it, some still had to be taken off.  I used CA debonder which is fairly effective on CA that has set hard, but it would have been far easier had I cleaned as I went.  I found in cleaning the tarnish off the copper (with lemon juice mainly) , the tarnish reappeared in minutes. Between finishing the cleaning and putting on a coat of polyurethane  was a bit of a race.  The early signs suggest the result is acceptable, though the cleaning did not go as well as I would have liked.  Nevertheless I have just finished and today is probably a good day to have done it.  It's quite hot (about 35 deg C) and I have found that poly sets really well when warm.

 

The false keel has turned out well, so with luck I have finished below the waterline. I will post some photos once the the polyurethane is fully hardened.

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I have just looked at the photos and unfortunately for some reason (perhaps low light) they haven''t come out. They are quite blurry. Very odd.

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These look a little better and when I can move the thing into better light I'll try for a last time.  In the 'flesh' the result is not too bad.

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Bob - that looks great and you look to have some very nice lines on your hull.  I've noticed that the copper plates can highlight slight imperfections but looks like you've got it just right.  Keel looks good as well, you should be very happy.

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Thanks BE and Jason.

 

I must admit that I am a bit disappointed in the result, though it is acceptable.  I made the mistake of doing the final cleaning in the store room under the house where the light is not as good as it could be.  I'll know better next time.  The polyurethane spray does give a very good and hard finish, and I suspect the diffused way the light is reflected off its the surface has something to do with the poor quality of the photos.  Chris Watton uses a type of polyurethane spray, and I have noticed that the photos of the copper on the box the model came in seem to have the same diffused character.  Once I get the model into good light it will be interesting to see if all of this is right. 

Edited by RMC

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I have taken the model out of the storeroom and put it in better light. While I was waiting for the polyurethane to dry properly I finished painting the stern decoration and began work on the rudder.  One of the really good things about this kit is the many self-contained projects that go to make up the whole.

The stern decoration is fiddly and perhaps I have used too many colours for the period, but I'm quite pleased with it. I don't know how you could paint something like this in a smaller scale.

 

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Here I'll be doing my best to duplicate Arthur's work of his rudder.  I presume the false keel does not extend to the rudder.

 

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Anyone wholooks at this log will be sick of coppering photos, and except for incidentals, these will definitely be the last ones. I won't know until I finally submit this post whether the photos have come out.

 

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To all, I hope you have a really happy and enjoyable Christmas and a very happy  New Year.  My family and I will be off on Christmas day for a few weeks to the beach south of Sydney where among other things I will try to finish the masts.

 

Bob

 

Edited by RMC

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I've just come back from holidays and was able to make some progress, though not nearly as much as I planned. We've been having a hot spell of weather and the beach took precedence over boat building.

 

The tops took me far longer than I expected.  The holes that need to be drilled at the front of each one need care.  The ply is prone to damage. Once I discovered that (while drilling the first hole) I put thin CA on the top and bottom where the holes were to be drilled.  Once dry the holes drilled easily. You may see the coating of CA on the first three photos - particularly the photo of the underside in the first photo..

 

 

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The trestle/cross  trees proved to be quite fiddly. A simple jig was necessary to keep everything square.

I fitted a trestle tree into the gap between two pieces of scrap 1x5mm and sqaring  up the cross trees along the lines on the plastic gizmo (from my wife's quilting kit - little does she know).

 

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Here all the bits and pieces panted and coated with polyurethane.  The spray poly finishes the paint work beautifully.

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This shows the  finished mizzen topgallanr mast.  The detail is not well shown in the photo and at the moment it is not really useful to show the others I have finished for that reason.

 

 

 

My next major job is to finish and fit the rudder  Having seen the workmanship of Arthur's rudder and the trouble to which he went, I am approaching it with some trepidation.

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Edited by RMC

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I have just looked at the photos of the painted tops which appear to have fluff on them.  A quick brush with a stiff paint brush took all of this off. The unpainted portion in the centre of the tops shows where the bolsters will go.

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I decided to put the windows into the side galleries while waiting for the paint to dry on the rudder.

 

It would have been far easier to put the windows on before mounting the galleries on the ship.  Every time I tried to put a window in, it either fell into the gallery or fell out.  This made me quite unhappy.  Eventually I took a piece of scrap 0.6mm thick wood and pressed it into the gallery so that it bent to the shape of the gallery curve. It provide support to the window and fitting them turned out to then be quite easy.

 

I again used Krystal klear for the windows. Unfortunately minor disaster then struck. I knew CA would fog up acetate: it didn't occur to me that KK would be similarly affected. I then had to cut out the fogged windows (it took quite some time to get it right) and redid them after the CA had fully cured. Fortunately I had only done one row of windows before I discovered the problem.  KK is also a glue and I used it to glue the remaining windows in without any problem.  The KK really does a very nice job it's realistic, tough and flexible - and can be cut out (if necessary) - just don't use it around CA.

 

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Edited by RMC

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Arthur: I used Humbrol Acrylic for the window frames and it does do a nice job, and for this type of job, I don't think that there is an alternative but to use a spray.  It is, however, quite fragile and and touching up any damage with a brush is quite difficult.  As well, with acrylics, cleaning brushes well is just about impossible. In all, where possible I'll stick to enamel, which if you take the time - lots of coats and sending lightly between coats - then give it a coat of spray polyurethane, gives an almost perfect finish.

 

Acrylics are good for painting houses though ...... :)

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After much debate (my wife thinks I'm talking to myself) I have decided to take off the polyurethane (Estapol Matt) and clean the copper plates properly. The deciding influence was the coppering of the rudder.  I would have been unable to duplicate the same finish as on  the hull. Together, the two different finishes would have looked absurd.

 

Although there's a risk of stuffing it up completely, I was very unhappy with the first effort.  The manufacturer of the polyurethane  has advised me that acetone will take it off, and I have tested some scrap plates that I have coated with the poly. It seems to do the job without too much difficulty.  I will post some 'before' and 'after' pictures when I finish. (If it's a disaster, maybe I won't.)

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Joy.  To my surprise it has all come out very well indeed - after some (sometimes) very painful, self-inflicted minor disasters.  I will post some pictures tomorrow, all going well, with a description of the procedure and the disasters.  It is a cautionary tale.

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Here are some pictures of the copper cleanup.

 

The first three provide a good idea of the original disaster: the second and third showing the difference after stripping the polyurethane with acetone.

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The next four show the complete cleanup.

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Having spent nearly 20 hours cleaning, I then reached for the spray can of poly - the stuff in the blue can.

One should read the label of course. Having given the (blue) can a good shake I proceeded to spray the copper matt black.  This was obviously not a good idea, and having said, "Oh, how unfortunate" (or words to that effect) I spent the next 2 hours taking the paint off with mineral turps. But fate had more in store. Having brought the finish back to its pristine cleanliness, I again tried the poly - this time, having read the label.  After making a couple of passes the can was empty, and to show its displeasure, sent, what I can best describe as a sploop of poly onto the copper surface.  Back to the acetone for which I have now probably acquired a sniffing addiction, then to what I hope is a final and successful spraying.

 

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One positive came out of the black paint episode.  The cleaning left a tiny residual in the rivets which now shows them up very nicely.  However I do NOT recommend trying this at home.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by RMC

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Bob by the way have you read the build article in English model boating magazine by Keith Jullier on his build of either Agamemnon and or Vanguard? Some interesting titbits in there as well. Food for thought.

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Thank you for the likes etc.

 

rpetera: No I haven't seen the Jullier article - do you have a reference? All help is gratefully received.

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Wow - great work on the model and your detailed log has pretty much answered all of my questions and concerns about coppering. Very glad I found it! I'll try and leave the experiences of mine on my log when I get into it.

 

Thanks

Alistair

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Thanks for the kind comment Alistair.  I hope you don't make the same mistakes I did.  Cleaning CA is best done with acetone and there is a special acetone remover  (very odd stuff) which with some effort will remove stubborn CA.  Generally acetone will not remove stains but vinegar with some salt will do it remarkably quickly BUT you need to wash  it off almost immediately or IT will stain..  Then apply Brasso which is the best polishing medium that I have found.

 

Good luck.

 

Bob

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I appear to have have been short-changed by Amati again.  There is no 1mm copper wire.  I presume it is to make the pintles., though 2 metres worth for this alone seems excessive.  Does anyone have any idea what the remainder is to be used for?

 

I have almost finished coppering the rudder.  It has prover to be far more difficult than I expected and the result so far has been just so so.  The sides are fine, but leading edge of the rudder is not as good as I would like. However with luck it will not show once the rudder is mounted.  I will try to post pictures on the weekend.

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