Echo Cross Section by DaveC- Finished

[tlevine]

I don't know about historically accurate but if you want that holly to stay white-white finish it with clear dope.  That is the advise given to me by David A. and it worked wonderfully.  After a year there is not a hint of yellowing.

[dvm27]

Nice wales, Dave. I also used the clear dope, but diluted, and the wood looks like the day it was applied. Smells great when applying also!

[Stuntflyer]

I used a lot of clear dope when I was building airplanes and still have a few gallons on the shelf. Aero Gloss Clear "Nitrate" Dope was known to yellow over time. On the other hand, Sig Mfg had a product called "Butyrate" Clear Dope which won't yellow over time or shrink like some "Super Coat " clear dopes. It's still available over the internet.

 

Mike

Edited January 16, 2017 by Stuntflyer

[davec]

Toni, Greg, and Mike -

 

Many thanks for the tip about the model airplane dope.  I used it when I lived in a small apartment 25 years ago and was trying stick and paper airplanes - it was the only kind of project I had enough room for. 

 

I learned my lesson about Holly when I was working on the Rattlesnake. I spent a lot of time making a black and white parquet floor for the captain's cabin out of ebony and holly, then finished it with minwax wipe-on poly and had a yellow and white floor - very disappointing.  I experimented with a bunch of clear coats (haven't tried dope) and found that the minwax water based poly works really well.  It puts a nice surface coat on without soaking in and changing the wood color. 

 

The holly deck in the Hannah picture above was finished  with the water based poly about 6 years ago, and I have the deck and whitestuff on the Rattlesnake from about 10 years ago also with the original white color unchanged.  The tin I have of it is 10 years old and probably no good anymore so I will need to decide whether to switch to dope or get a new container of the poly.  It is a good alternative for people who like water cleanups.

 

thanks!

 

Dave

[davec]

I decided to plank boxwood down to the waterline and holly below.  The top of the waterline is pretty close to the bottom of the wales.  I used a taper jig to taper strips of boxwood and holly, and glued them together into a single plank 10" scale in width.  I need to rip out the plank below this one that tapers from 3 1/2" to 3" thick, then can begin planking.  I think I am going to take the approach that the whitestuff would cover the treenails and not spend a week treenailing under the waterline.  I will probably treenail the boxwood below and above the wales.

 

Dave

Edited January 17, 2017 by davec

[dvm27]

Well thought out and executed, Dave! Wish I had done that!

[davec]

Underside planked.  I used holly.  Finish is minwax polycrylic satin, which is water based and doesn't seem to change the color of the wood.  It says on the can that it is good for light colored wood.  I started using it 13-14 years ago, and the holly on those models has not changed color.  It does seem like the can has a shelf life.  When I reopened my old can and tried it on scrap, it did darken the wood a little.  It was probably about 15 years old.  I bought a new can which worked fine.

 

I don't think I am going to treenail the holly.  I will treenail the boxwood, but not until the upper hull is planked,  Plan is to do the upper hull, at least to the level of the shear strake, then start installing all the inside parts that I was working on.

[tlevine]

The planking looks great.  Why not treenail the holly?  I used bamboo treenails for the holly hull on Atalanta and they break up the sea of white.  

[davec]

Hi Toni - I looked at your Atalanta planking, and your holly with with bamboo treenails does look incredible.  I had two reasons for not treenailing.

 

I'm probably overthinking this (which isn't unusual for me).    First, I picked the holly to simulate coating with whitestuff, and I thought the treenails wouldn't have shown through the coating.  As I think about it, this isn't really consistent with my other treenails.  I used ebony on the wales to simulate black paint, which would have covered treenails, but I treenailed anyways. 

 

Other reason is that the cross section was supposed to be a brief learning exercise to get me ready to do a fully framed ship, and has evolved into a multi-year adventure.  I'm pretty comfortable with treenailing, and kind of wanted to get on to next steps. 

 

Now that I look at your pictures, I'm having second thoughts.  I might make some holly treenails and try a test piece.  I like a little less contrast, and to me the end grain from the treenails of the same kind of wood gives an effect I like.

 

I worked overnight, so won't do anything until at least tomorrow, and will give it some more thought in the interim.

 

thanks!

 

Dave

[tlevine]

I tried holly treenails on a sample and found two things:  they were harder to draw than bamboo and once the finish was applied they darkened because of the end grain and were not appreciably lighter than bamboo.  Regardless, your build looks great.

[Maury S]

Dave,

I like the shift from Box to holly at the waterline...Was the waterline really that high up on the Echo?  Nice wales!

 

Maury

[davec]

Toni and Maury -

 

Many thanks!  I have been working from David and Greg's practicum, and took the height of the waterline from the diagram on page 25.  In the diagram, it comes to just under the wales at this part of the ship.

 

I'm still up in the air about treenailing the holly.  I finished planking from the wales to the shear strake last night.  I'm heading out for a business trip, and will treenail the upper hull on my return.  I will decide about treenailing the lower hull when I see how busy the hull looks at that point. 

 

I think I'm going deviate significantly from the practicum order and finish the internal and external planking before installing the deck beams and interior fittings.  Things like sanding treenails and port stops flush should be much easier without these parts in place.  Hopefully this isn't going to cause me problems later.  It seems like it should be OK - it looks like the placement of all the innards follows from the location of the deck clamps, and there aren't any parts of the internal planking that depends on anything else.

 

Dave

[davec]

I completed the upper hull planking to the level of the shear strake.  Treenails are boxwood.  I started work on the inner upper hull planking as well.  I added the quarterdeck clamp and port stops.  I’m going to use swiss pear on the bulwarks planking and gun carriages.  I have some bloodwood, which would do better for a red color, but the grain seems too prominent.

 

I must have had some cumulative error in my measurements.  The plans specify two 11.5” planks with the lower one starting at the upper edge of the gunport.  This put the quarterdeck too high, so I thinned both strakes.  I used boxwood for the clamp on the side I am leaving unplanked.  Hopefully the different woods on the two sides won’t look bad.  The alternative was to use pear on both sides, but then it would have been the only piece of wood that wasn’t boxwood on that side of the hull.

 

I still haven’t decided about treenails for the holly lower hull.  I’m going to put finish on the upper hull tonight and reassess.  I think it will make the boxwood treenails more prominent, and if it does, I may decide the outer hull looks busy enough and not add any more treenails.

 

I’m still a little stuck on next steps.  I’d planned on putting in the lower and upper deck quickwork and spirketing prior to installing the deck beams and inner fixtures so I can sand and treenail without disrupting anything.  It looks like the placement of the deck beam and waterway determines the placement of the quickwork, so I may need to start work on the lower deck.

 

[davec]

We just finished some work on our house, which included major renovations to my workshop.  I thought of putting up a build log of the renovations, but it wasn't me doing the work, and I just never got it together.

 

My old workshop was my dream workshop when we moved into the house. It was the first time I ever had a dedicated room, and it was decent size, around 17x12 feet. It was a usual basement room: unfinished, with exposed insulation, uncovered small part-eating gap between slab and wall, and just got outgrown as I go more tools and tried to work on two projects at once.  The room was off a “two-car garage”, which only fit two cars if they are parked front to back.  I used my table and band saws there.

 

At the urging of my tremendously supportive wife, we put up an insulated wall that splits the garage and creates a new second workshop room. There is a third furnace room in back, which we were able to clear out.  All three rooms will be part of the new workshop.  The two front rooms got:

 

-Sheet rock over ceilings and exposed insulation

-Painted walls, ceilings, and floors

-lights and electrical outlets

-dehumidifier with drain for condensate

-vent for spray booth

-molding covering gap between walls and slab where parts always disappeared

-utility sinks

 

The unfinished furnace room got lights and electrical outlets.  The epoxy floors should be dry enough that I can start to move my tables and tools back in over the weekend.  Plan is for storage and big sawdust producing machines in the unfinished room (band saw and table saw). Still working on the layout of the other rooms.  Most likely paint and assembly in the new room with the spray booth vent, and wood and metal small power tools in the old workshop.  I don’t think I will outgrow this workshop, and now could build something bigger than a model if I ever want to.

 

Some pictures below. The camera on my phone made the rooms look a lot darker than they really are - the lighting is great.   I didn’t take any of the furnace room. It looks like an unfinished basement room with a furnace in the corner, but now with lights and enough electrical outlets.  First two pictures are the new room, second two are the renovated old workshop room.

 

Should be able to get back to Echo in a week or so.  It’s been sitting on the shelf if my office waiting. 

[druxey]

Enjoy your new spaces, Dave!

[VinceMcCullough]

Great looking space, Dave!  I'm envious!

 

 

[davec]

Vince and Druxey - many thanks.  I still haven't moved anything back in.  I spent the last few days cleaning the plaster dust that got all over the house, and yesterday moving many boxes of stuff out of a storage locker and into the new attic room.  I got my wife's side of the garage back in order.  I'm hoping to be back in business by next weekend.

 

Dave

[Ryland Craze]

Wow, that is nice.  You will be able to do some serious modeling in your new workshop.  I cannot wait to see it when you move all of your modeling tools back in.  I am also looking forward to seeing the models you will be building as you turned out some highly crafted models out of your old workshop.

[VinceMcCullough]

Dave

 

As Mickey Martell used to say, " t'aint a hobby if you gotta hurry."

 

You'll be back up and making sawdust soon enough.

 

Vince

[DocBlake]

Excellent job so far.  I am anxious to see more!

[davec]

Doc - Many thanks!  I'm getting back to work on the cross section.  My rhythm got thrown off by the workshop expansion, then I got down to the wire on the deadline for a book I was editing (sorry - work related - nothing to do with model ships).  I have everything set up in the new space.  Manuscript went off to the copy editor last week, and I got into the workshop the last two weekends.   

 

I made the quarterdeck breast beam, then realized I need to change my building strategy.  I have the internal and external planking done up to the quarterdeck deck clamp. I was originally going to finish the planking and rails before installing the decks and fixtures.  I think the interrelationship between parts are significant enough that it is time to go back and start installing the decks.  I finished the hinges for the shot locker yesterday.  A friend from the club had helped me photo etch them last year.  I had played with my resistance soldering unit when I made the eyebolts for the breast beam, and was finally comfortable enough that I could try to solder on the hinge pins without ruining the photo etched pieces.  It went really well. I painted and glued them on. 

 

Will post some pictures soon.

 

Dave

[MEDDO]

Very nice progress. I am interested in seeing the next steps.

[davec]

Michael - many thanks!  Got my batteries recharged at the NRG meeting and workshop, finished my travelling, and got back into the workshop yesterday.  Made the hanging knees , and put the notches in the lodging knees.  Hoping to get some pictures up later today, but after no visible progress for months, will hopefully get the lower deck framing in place soon. 

 

Only hold up was that I was planning on trying to blacken the bolts in place.  I usually use brass, but was going to try copper wire and liver of sulfur. The copper wire I ordered last week is here, but the liver of sulfur appears to have gotten lost in the mail.  Will need to reorder.

 

Dave

[clifforddward]

Dave...your note reminded me of the conversation at the recent Admiralty Models workshop about Liver of Sulphur....placed an order via Amazon this morning.  David was right, this stuff is available from a number of sources. 

 

As I ramp up my Echo Cross Section build I'll be installing "bolts" in the keel scarf early in the build...need to get ready for that.

 

Now just need to check my metal stock to see if I have the right sizes of copper wire already...

[DocBlake]

Cliff:  I asked that question about bolts in the keel scarphs in my Triton log:  Were the scarphs bolted or tree nailed?  If bolted, copper bolts wouldn’t be strong enough and iron would corrode.  What do you think?  I decided to treenail.

[MEDDO]

24 minutes ago, davec said:

  Got my batteries recharged at the NRG meeting and workshop,

I know what you mean.  I had in my mind an entire progressive plan from the Queen Anne barge to pinnace (out of box) to longboat (with wood upgrade package) etc etc.  Each step learning and practicing more up until I got up the nerve for a scratch section.  Might be rethinking all that and jumping into the dark side earlier than planned.  

[DocBlake]

Cliff:  What brand of liver of sulfur did you buy?  What about shelf life issues?

[dvm27]

49 minutes ago, DocBlake said:

Cliff:  I asked that question about bolts in the keel scarphs in my Triton log:  Were the scarphs bolted or tree nailed?  If bolted, copper bolts wouldn’t be strong enough and iron would corrode.  What do you think?  I decided to treenail.

The joints were held together with copper bolts. Size and number were dictated by the size of the scarph joint. Remember that in real practice these joints were hooked, tabled and/or coaked which afforded a tremendous amount of interlocking power when the copper bolts were driven through.

[DocBlake]

Thanks, Greg!

[clifforddward]

Dave, I think Greg hit the nail on the head...we can't think of the copper bolts in same way as a modern carriage bolt...these would have been made one by one, and fastening would probably have been more along the lines of clinching rather than a screwed on nut.

 

As for our models, I suppose leaving a copper rod exposed in the raw would appear proper for an "as new" copper bolt...to represent an iron bolt using the liver of sulphur would color the "bolt head" a dark color.

 

I bought some of the gel type liver of sulphur to try to see how it works...claims to last longer although I think the hard version has at least a year shelf life in the can.  Certainly cheap enough to replace periodically.