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Please can one of you experts out there tell me at which point should I attach sails?

 

When I have completed the masts, should I attach the sails to the yards before fitting them?

 

Should I attach the yards first, then complete the ratlines and standing rigging, then attach the sails and then rig those or is there a better way?

 

Any help here would be much appreciated as this is my first attempt.

 

Current build : Fokker Dr 1

 

Completed non-boat build 1/16 Model expo Sopwith Camel - in shore leave.

Previous boat builds:

Yacht Mary

Artesania Latina Red Dragon (Modified)

Non-boat build 1/24 scale Dennis bus by OcCre - in shore leave.

Mare Nostrum (modified)  Amati Oseberg (modified)  Chaperon sternwheel steamer 1884   Constructo Lady Smith kit/scratch build   

OcCre Santisima Trinidad Cross Section 

Constructo Robert E Lee Paddle Steamer  Constructo Louise, steam powered river boat   OcCre Bounty with cutaway hull 

Corel Scotland Baltic Ketch (not on MSW) OcCre Spirit of Mississippi paddle steamer (not on MSW)

In the Gallery:
 Mare Nostrum   Oesberg  Constructo Lady Smith   Constructo Robert E Lee   Constructo Louise   OcCre Bounty   OcCre Spirit of Mississippi

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Sails should be attached to the yards. Start from the mizen mast and go ahead first rigging the lower sails. Some lines for the topsails can be attached to their pins first and made trough all blocks and narrow places and thus after rigging the lower sails will be easy to rig the upper one. Look at my build log for the Dutch fleyte.

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Should I attach the sails to the yards before I attach the yards to the masts?

 

If so, when do I do the standing rigging?

Current build : Fokker Dr 1

 

Completed non-boat build 1/16 Model expo Sopwith Camel - in shore leave.

Previous boat builds:

Yacht Mary

Artesania Latina Red Dragon (Modified)

Non-boat build 1/24 scale Dennis bus by OcCre - in shore leave.

Mare Nostrum (modified)  Amati Oseberg (modified)  Chaperon sternwheel steamer 1884   Constructo Lady Smith kit/scratch build   

OcCre Santisima Trinidad Cross Section 

Constructo Robert E Lee Paddle Steamer  Constructo Louise, steam powered river boat   OcCre Bounty with cutaway hull 

Corel Scotland Baltic Ketch (not on MSW) OcCre Spirit of Mississippi paddle steamer (not on MSW)

In the Gallery:
 Mare Nostrum   Oesberg  Constructo Lady Smith   Constructo Robert E Lee   Constructo Louise   OcCre Bounty   OcCre Spirit of Mississippi

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If you are going to have sails make sure your standing rigging is taken care of. Try do do all the Spars off the ship. Put your sails on the Spars with all of the blocks etc that you can. The there are several books out there on rigging. Also check out the build logs. This will help you out and make things easier for you.

David B

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Thanks dgbot, what is a spar? Is that what I think a yard is? If I am going to do all the standing rigging first surely I have to have the cross pieces which hold the sails (whatever they are called) attached to the masts first don't I ?

Current build : Fokker Dr 1

 

Completed non-boat build 1/16 Model expo Sopwith Camel - in shore leave.

Previous boat builds:

Yacht Mary

Artesania Latina Red Dragon (Modified)

Non-boat build 1/24 scale Dennis bus by OcCre - in shore leave.

Mare Nostrum (modified)  Amati Oseberg (modified)  Chaperon sternwheel steamer 1884   Constructo Lady Smith kit/scratch build   

OcCre Santisima Trinidad Cross Section 

Constructo Robert E Lee Paddle Steamer  Constructo Louise, steam powered river boat   OcCre Bounty with cutaway hull 

Corel Scotland Baltic Ketch (not on MSW) OcCre Spirit of Mississippi paddle steamer (not on MSW)

In the Gallery:
 Mare Nostrum   Oesberg  Constructo Lady Smith   Constructo Robert E Lee   Constructo Louise   OcCre Bounty   OcCre Spirit of Mississippi

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On my Badger, I did sails in the following order:

 

1.  standing rigging;

 

2.  attached the sails to the yards;

 

3.  attached the yards to the masts.  

 

 

Attaching sails is very fiddly work.  I don't know how you could ever attach them to the spars after the spars were already attached to the masts.

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32  Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72  IJN Notoro 1/700  Akitsu Maru 1/700

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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Mike, what vessel are you building, if it was a kit it should come with an instruction book. Plus check out the forums for rigging. Your model may already be there.

David B

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Thanks Landlubber, I think I get it but still don't know what a spar is.

 

dgbot, I am building the OcCre Bounty and have a long build log in progress. I am sure you have been watching it?  The instructions are totally useless and I am having to work from plans only. It is the order of doing things I need.

Current build : Fokker Dr 1

 

Completed non-boat build 1/16 Model expo Sopwith Camel - in shore leave.

Previous boat builds:

Yacht Mary

Artesania Latina Red Dragon (Modified)

Non-boat build 1/24 scale Dennis bus by OcCre - in shore leave.

Mare Nostrum (modified)  Amati Oseberg (modified)  Chaperon sternwheel steamer 1884   Constructo Lady Smith kit/scratch build   

OcCre Santisima Trinidad Cross Section 

Constructo Robert E Lee Paddle Steamer  Constructo Louise, steam powered river boat   OcCre Bounty with cutaway hull 

Corel Scotland Baltic Ketch (not on MSW) OcCre Spirit of Mississippi paddle steamer (not on MSW)

In the Gallery:
 Mare Nostrum   Oesberg  Constructo Lady Smith   Constructo Robert E Lee   Constructo Louise   OcCre Bounty   OcCre Spirit of Mississippi

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My advice would be to go through some of the Bounty logs.  Even though they are not from the same MGR, they will be able to guide you easier than I can. 

David B

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Hi Mike--

 

My understanding is that a spar is anything like a pole on a ship that a sail is attached to.  Yards are spars that are perpendicular to masts on a square rigged ship.  So a yard is also a spar and a boom can be a spar, but a boom isn't a yard.  I'm pretty sure I got that right but someone will straighten me out if I'm wrong. 

 

As far as sails, the only time I ever put sails on a ship was when I did a Chinese junk so that experience really doesn't apply.  I have consciously decided not to put sails on any of the other ships I've done because (1) I think they hide interesting detail and (2) I can never get them to look right.  Put it's a personal decision.  Good luck.

Tom

 

 

Current: Sergal Sovereign of the Seas

Previous builds:  AL Swift, AL King of the Mississippi, Mamoli Roter Lowe, Amati Chinese Junk, Caesar, Mamoli USS Constitution, Mantua HMS Victory, Panart San Felipe, Mantua Sergal Soleil Royal

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A spar is a pole.  It is a collective term for every pole on the ship.  Vertical spars are called masts.  Spars that cross masts and extend to both sides are called yards.  Spars that extend to one side only are called booms or gaffs.

 

You will often find that the same object used differently on a ship will get different names depending on it's usage.

Henry

 

Laissez le bon temps rouler ! 

 

 

Current Build:  Le Soleil Royal

Completed Build Amerigo Vespucci

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Mike,

 

I try to complete maximum rigging setup, including sails on the masts and spars before installation on the model.  My approach and pictures are included in the Topsail Schooner "Eagle" 1847 build log.  See the links below:

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/6774-topsail-schooner-eagle-1847-pete-jaquith-scratch/page-3

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/6774-topsail-schooner-eagle-1847-pete-jaquith-scratch/page-4

 

Regards,

Pete Jaquith

Shipbuilder

Edited by Pete Jaquith

Pete Jaquith

Shipbuilder

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Mike,

 

In my opinion, the time to add sails is never.  Unless they are furled, and/or your model is at least 1:48 or larger they are very difficult to make to scale and rig so they hang naturally.  I have done sails on a number of schooner models that are 1/4" scale only because the client always requires it but I use at least 800 thread count linen or better, 1200 TC if I can find it at a discount price.  I will probably try silk span on the next one.

 

If you feel you must include sails, the thinnest you can probably readily find is silkspan.  It comes in three grades, starting from the lightest,  00, 000, and SGM.  I believe all the new stuff is polyspan.   I also suggest you get a copy of David Antscherl's TFFM Volume 4 to get a great source of information on rigging.  If you want to go with silkspan Google K&S White Aero Silk Covering for information and sources.

Good luck

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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Sails are very hard to replicate in the smaller scales.  When using them and you are furling them cut them in half.  I have also use very fine rice paper as well.  Works nice but very delicate.

David B

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  • 3 weeks later...

Mike, if you're thinking about furled sails, I set up a separate thread/tutorial on what I did for my Badger.  Maybe this can be of some help:

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/3944-landlubber-mikes-technique-for-furled-sails/

 

 

Sails are a personal decision.  There are the purists who leave them off because of scale.  For me, these are sailing ships and like someone said here once - a ship without sails is like a car without tires.  In any event, good luck with whatever you decide.  Adding sails added considerable time to my build, but I really enjoyed the process of going through and learning what all the lines, etc. were for.  It gave me a greater appreciation for these gorgeous ships.

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32  Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72  IJN Notoro 1/700  Akitsu Maru 1/700

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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Thanks so much for the link and the information. The time and trouble you have taken will I am sure help a great many modellers. I think for me it probably confirms that I am too new to all this to contemplate sails which whilst being a shame because as you say they are sailing ships will save a great deal of breakage!!!!

Current build : Fokker Dr 1

 

Completed non-boat build 1/16 Model expo Sopwith Camel - in shore leave.

Previous boat builds:

Yacht Mary

Artesania Latina Red Dragon (Modified)

Non-boat build 1/24 scale Dennis bus by OcCre - in shore leave.

Mare Nostrum (modified)  Amati Oseberg (modified)  Chaperon sternwheel steamer 1884   Constructo Lady Smith kit/scratch build   

OcCre Santisima Trinidad Cross Section 

Constructo Robert E Lee Paddle Steamer  Constructo Louise, steam powered river boat   OcCre Bounty with cutaway hull 

Corel Scotland Baltic Ketch (not on MSW) OcCre Spirit of Mississippi paddle steamer (not on MSW)

In the Gallery:
 Mare Nostrum   Oesberg  Constructo Lady Smith   Constructo Robert E Lee   Constructo Louise   OcCre Bounty   OcCre Spirit of Mississippi

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Many thanks for that link and I did post a reply on there but you raise another question for me. If I use the furled sails idea will I still need all the rigging required for a full sail setup or does it become simpler?

Current build : Fokker Dr 1

 

Completed non-boat build 1/16 Model expo Sopwith Camel - in shore leave.

Previous boat builds:

Yacht Mary

Artesania Latina Red Dragon (Modified)

Non-boat build 1/24 scale Dennis bus by OcCre - in shore leave.

Mare Nostrum (modified)  Amati Oseberg (modified)  Chaperon sternwheel steamer 1884   Constructo Lady Smith kit/scratch build   

OcCre Santisima Trinidad Cross Section 

Constructo Robert E Lee Paddle Steamer  Constructo Louise, steam powered river boat   OcCre Bounty with cutaway hull 

Corel Scotland Baltic Ketch (not on MSW) OcCre Spirit of Mississippi paddle steamer (not on MSW)

In the Gallery:
 Mare Nostrum   Oesberg  Constructo Lady Smith   Constructo Robert E Lee   Constructo Louise   OcCre Bounty   OcCre Spirit of Mississippi

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All the rigging would be applied.  When the wind was right the sails had to be ready in a matter of minutes.  Once unfurled and let out they were moving.

David B

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Mike, the Badger was my first ship.  If I can do it, you can do it :)

 

You don't need all the running rigging if you use furled sails.  I did the clew lines, buntlines and sheets.  The leech lines would be hidden I think, so I didn't bother with those.  There may be another set of lines that I also didn't add.  The clew lines, buntlines and sheets should be in your kit plans for the masts.  The bowsprit takes a little more work with the jib sails, as you need to add jib stays and halliards.  You also need chocks, a jib traveler, suitable belaying points.

 

Take a look here - this might help:

 

http://sailing-ships.oktett.net/square-rigging.html

 

 

Good resources are Lees "Masting and Rigging" and the TFFM volume 4.  I recently bought Marquardt's "Eighteenth Century" book which also looks pretty good.

 

Hope that helps.

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32  Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72  IJN Notoro 1/700  Akitsu Maru 1/700

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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Many thanks for the link again - it looks like I need to do a lot of study. Most of the nautical terms don't mean a thing to me. I am used to building non-boat models.

I think you probably know that I am building the OcCre Bounty at 1/45 scale.

I have never seen so many pulleys, blocks, clump blocks etc etc in my life I didn't even know what a clump block was until this!! You say very kindly that if you can do it anyone can and I appreciate your faith albeit misguided! There must be miles, and yes I do mean miles of potential string for this boat.

 

I thought planking was a challenge but this is just something else. 

 

Opinions also seem to vary so much, some say put sails on, some say too difficult don't even go there. I thought maybe your furled thingy was the answer but I have to admit at this stage I just don't know what to do.

 

I am now working on the main mast yards and then I have the mizzen and yards to do. The bowsprit and fore masts and all the yards for those are finished complete with all their blocks etc.

 

I am assuming (?) that standing rigging is what holds all that lot together and has to be done and running rigging (?) is for all the sails.

The instructions, which will come as no surprise to anyone, are a complete joke. I might as well throw the string at the boat and stick it where it lands.

 

Perhaps you understand why I am at a loss?

Current build : Fokker Dr 1

 

Completed non-boat build 1/16 Model expo Sopwith Camel - in shore leave.

Previous boat builds:

Yacht Mary

Artesania Latina Red Dragon (Modified)

Non-boat build 1/24 scale Dennis bus by OcCre - in shore leave.

Mare Nostrum (modified)  Amati Oseberg (modified)  Chaperon sternwheel steamer 1884   Constructo Lady Smith kit/scratch build   

OcCre Santisima Trinidad Cross Section 

Constructo Robert E Lee Paddle Steamer  Constructo Louise, steam powered river boat   OcCre Bounty with cutaway hull 

Corel Scotland Baltic Ketch (not on MSW) OcCre Spirit of Mississippi paddle steamer (not on MSW)

In the Gallery:
 Mare Nostrum   Oesberg  Constructo Lady Smith   Constructo Robert E Lee   Constructo Louise   OcCre Bounty   OcCre Spirit of Mississippi

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I am confused half the time with some of the lingo as well.  There was a long time where I was interchanging bulwarks and bulkheads.  Even worse, I just realized I have been misspelling "bowsprit" the last five years  :huh:   What I love about this hobby is not only the craftsmanship/building aspect, but also the learning aspect - history, technology, mechanics, etc.

 

Your Bounty is very nice!  I should probably take my own advice, but don't get overwhelmed by all you have to do - just break things up into small discrete tasks.  The decision on the sails is yours alone - do you want to build a model with sails?  If so, where there is a will there is a way :)   You'll have to spend some time researching - I probably spent two months of reading and planning things out.  But, I wasn't in a rush to finish the model as I got more out of the journey than the destination.   In the end, I think everyone wants a model they can be proud of, so if you like ships with sails, add sails!

 

I may be overstating, but standing rigging is fixed.  It includes all the various stays to keep the masts in place and the shrouds (which are probably a form of stay).  Running rigging is a working line - the lines enable one to raise and lower sails, move the spars, hoist or lower things, etc.

 

Do you have the Lennarth Petersson book "Rigging Period Ship Models"?  If you're like me and learn more from pictures than words, it is an invaluable resource to learn all the rigging that goes into a ship.  The book is entirely composed of pictures, and no words.  It is fantastic.

Edited by Landlubber Mike

Mike

 

Current Wooden builds:  Amati/Victory Pegasus  MS Charles W. Morgan  Euromodel La Renommèe  

 

Plastic builds:    SB2U-1 Vindicator 1/48  Five Star Yaeyama 1/700  Pit Road Asashio and Akashi 1/700 diorama  Walrus 1/48 and Albatross 1/700  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/32  Eduard Sikorsky JRS-1 1/72  IJN Notoro 1/700  Akitsu Maru 1/700

 

Completed builds :  Caldercraft Brig Badger   Amati Hannah - Ship in Bottle  Pit Road Hatsuzakura 1/700   Hasegawa Shimakaze 1:350

F4B-4 and P-6E 1/72  Accurate Miniatures F3F-1/F3F-2 1/48  Tamiya F4F-4 Wildcat built as FM-1 1/48  Special Hobby Buffalo 1/48

Citroen 2CV 1/24 - Airfix and Tamiya  Entex Morgan 3-wheeler 1/16

 

Terminated build:  HMS Lyme (based on Corel Unicorn)  

 

On the shelf:  Euromodel Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde; Caldercraft Victory; too many plastic ship, plane and car kits

 

Future potential scratch builds:  HMS Lyme (from NMM plans); Le Gros Ventre (from Ancre monographs), Dutch ship from Ab Hoving book, HMS Sussex from McCardle book, Philadelphia gunboat (Smithsonian plans)

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I really appreciate your reply, thoughtful but not at all patronising, thank you very much.

 

Yes I like you learn far more from pictures than words so I may well have a look for the book you suggest.

 

Thank you again.

Current build : Fokker Dr 1

 

Completed non-boat build 1/16 Model expo Sopwith Camel - in shore leave.

Previous boat builds:

Yacht Mary

Artesania Latina Red Dragon (Modified)

Non-boat build 1/24 scale Dennis bus by OcCre - in shore leave.

Mare Nostrum (modified)  Amati Oseberg (modified)  Chaperon sternwheel steamer 1884   Constructo Lady Smith kit/scratch build   

OcCre Santisima Trinidad Cross Section 

Constructo Robert E Lee Paddle Steamer  Constructo Louise, steam powered river boat   OcCre Bounty with cutaway hull 

Corel Scotland Baltic Ketch (not on MSW) OcCre Spirit of Mississippi paddle steamer (not on MSW)

In the Gallery:
 Mare Nostrum   Oesberg  Constructo Lady Smith   Constructo Robert E Lee   Constructo Louise   OcCre Bounty   OcCre Spirit of Mississippi

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Can anyone tell me where to start with the standing rigging. Should it be the ratlines? Should all the standing mast rigging be done before any of the yards are added?

Current build : Fokker Dr 1

 

Completed non-boat build 1/16 Model expo Sopwith Camel - in shore leave.

Previous boat builds:

Yacht Mary

Artesania Latina Red Dragon (Modified)

Non-boat build 1/24 scale Dennis bus by OcCre - in shore leave.

Mare Nostrum (modified)  Amati Oseberg (modified)  Chaperon sternwheel steamer 1884   Constructo Lady Smith kit/scratch build   

OcCre Santisima Trinidad Cross Section 

Constructo Robert E Lee Paddle Steamer  Constructo Louise, steam powered river boat   OcCre Bounty with cutaway hull 

Corel Scotland Baltic Ketch (not on MSW) OcCre Spirit of Mississippi paddle steamer (not on MSW)

In the Gallery:
 Mare Nostrum   Oesberg  Constructo Lady Smith   Constructo Robert E Lee   Constructo Louise   OcCre Bounty   OcCre Spirit of Mississippi

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Once the masts are prepared you should start on the shrouds first altrnating from port to starboard for each shroud.  Once they have been rigged and connected to the deadeyes you would then start on the stays.  This is how I normally start out.

David B

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Typically, the order of fitting the standing rigging over the mast head on the actual ships was as follows:

1. Mast tackles

2. Shrouds (alternating port and starboard)

3. Stays

4. Winding tackle pendants

 

Perhaps that will help you decide what to rig first

Henry

 

Laissez le bon temps rouler ! 

 

 

Current Build:  Le Soleil Royal

Completed Build Amerigo Vespucci

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  • 4 weeks later...

I can never resist putting in my two cents on the issue of weather or not to include sails on a sailing ship model. I always try to advocate for including the sails since I view them as a defining aspect of a sailing vessel. The argument against sails is most often framed from the perspective that "they block the view of details on the model" and that they "are difficult". I will certainly agree that they are difficult! But I don't think that is an excuse to leave them off the model. The idea that they block the view of other aspects of the ship is true only in the sense that actual sails block the view of actual aspects of an actual ship. Thats how actual ships appear. Incidentally there are other things that are difficult to manage on ship models which ALSO block the view of deck details and are time consuming and difficult to make and install: Cannons! But you NEVER see people omit the cannons.

  

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 Niagara USS Constitution 

 

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