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Chuck

HM Cutter Cheerful - 1806 - 1:48 scale by Chuck

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Chuck,

 

"Request permission to come aboard, Sir". I am joining very late as I reenter the forum. This log is an overall practicum on how to accomplish many tasks to museum quality.

 

Thank you for your sharing .  .  .

 

Respectfully,

John Maguire

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The breech rope was made using a technique I saw on an actual contemporary model.  The splice for the button of the Carronade was simulated.

 

As mentioned I am using Syren .035 light brown rope.  All of my .035 size rope is four strands.   I dont think it would look as nice otherwise.  Four stranded rope just make it work nicely.   But essentially,  the entire breech rope is made to length....3" long.   (addendum) After consideration I think the breech line should be no longer than 3".  It looks a bit long in the photo. The eyebolts and rings were slipped on before the end was finished off.  You can see that in the photos.   The eyebolts were 28 gauge wire while the split rings were 24 gauge.

 

breech rope1.jpg

 

Then I used a sharp but wide awl to simulate the splice. It has to be large enough that the splice will fit over the button of the carronade or cannon.  In the center of the breech rope I pushed the awl through so there were two strands on top and bottom.  Hence the need for four stranded rope. Then I applied some watered down white glue and let it dry.  Once dry the simulated splice stayed to shape.

 

I have seen many real splices attempted and they just look to big and out of scale.  I couldnt pull that off convincingly. Even though this is a cheat, I think it looks better because it stays smaller.

 

breech rope2.jpg

 

 

I could have just gone with the usual wrapping once around the button of the carronade...but that is tough to do in my opinion.  It wont stay in place and you must use glue so it wont come undone.  This ends up pulling the finish off the barrel etc.  In the end it just looks too sloppy for me.  So I gave this a try.  No glue is needed at all.  It slips right on the button and wont come off.  This allows you more control to set the other eyes into the brackets of the carriage and then place the whole thing on deck.

 

breech rope.jpg

 

Hope that makes sense.   I also stiffened the line with the watered down white glue before starting.  Let it dry.  I just find it easier to work with when its a bit stiffer.  At least with the breech rope anyway.  I started with about a 5" long piece of rope.

 

Chuck

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Hi Chuck - 

 

Breeching rope looks good, and the rest of the carronade is up to your usual excellent standards.

 

I don't know if you have seen this, but E.W. Cooke did a drawing of a 12-pounder carronade on an English brig of war in the mid 1800s.  Although I usually trust an artist to reproduce what he sees, the breaching rope here sure looks like there wouldn't be much recoil allowed, unless the excess line is coiled at the bulwark.

 

Following along with interest.

 

Dan

 

post-3092-0-62072500-1457678138_thumb.jpg

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Hi Chuck - 

 

Breeching rope looks good, and the rest of the carronade is up to your usual excellent standards.

 

I don't know if you have seen this, but E.W. Cooke did a drawing of a 12-pounder carronade on an English brig of war in the mid 1800s.  Although I usually trust an artist to reproduce what he sees, the breaching rope here sure looks like there wouldn't be much recoil allowed, unless the excess line is coiled at the bulwark.

 

Following along with interest.

 

Dan

 

attachicon.gifCooke carronade.jpg

i would assume most artists would do exactly that, the recoil rope is almost taught save for the ring that attaches the recoil rope to the bulwark. unless they took all the excess robe and hide it on the other side, plus i would imagine that natural fiber rope has some give. interesting illustration though

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Had some time today to rig the carriage tackles.   I used 1/8" single blocks and .012 light brown rope.  I also used my 3mm hooks.   These were all made off the model and took some considerable time to make.   They fixed in position and the end of the tackle glue to the deck.  Then a small rope coil was glued on top of that.

 

I also took the time to experiment with a few rope coils for the pin rails.  I wanted to improve my abilities here and there is no time better than now.  With no rigging in the way I can experiment with different lengths and techniques and see how they will look.  I think these look pretty good.   I tried about a dozen different sizes and configurations.  The goal of course is to make them look somewhat natural without making my crew get in trouble for being so sloppy and undisciplined.   :D

 

Now to go through the whole process again on the other side.  Yikes.

 

carronrigged.jpg

 

carronrigged1.jpg

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I agree - those hanging rope coils look very realistic. The carronade rigging looks great too. I am at the same stage on the Conyy - i wish I only had 5 more to do - wait I only have 4 more to do. I will be glad to get past it.

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It depends on what your going for....Take a look at these rope coils.  Odd yes but pretty typical on contemporary models.    I have looked at a whole bunch and these will be easy enough to swap out....should I go relaxed or should I go contemporary???  I am still pondering.  I am trying to experiment and then choose after doing some pretty serious study of contemporary examples.   Rope coils for me are a challenge.  But I am trying hard to give this model some of that old-time contemporary feel.   Having said that....the relaxed coils on the pin rails do look good to me and would be very different if I was going to stick with these contemporary stylings.

 

I know modern rope bends and flexes but maybe the old rope in those days was much more stiff,  hence the look of these contemporary rope coils.  So many contemporary models have them its hard to ignore.  Click on that last image and really take a look at them.  Its very different than the natural coil I have hanging on the pin rail.  Which is more correct???  I have no idea.   I will go with one or the other after living with it for a while.

 

rope coils.jpg

 

ropecoils.jpg

 

ropecoils2.jpg

 

ropecoils1.jpg

 

If you have Grant Walkers new book on the Rogers Collection,  I urge you to flip through it and see how the rope coils look on some of those models.  There are some fantastic close-up images in that book in addition to these which I got from our gallery and my own collection.   I believe these are mostly contemporary but some of the Rogers stuff was rigged buy Culvers I think...back in the 20's.   He was masterful.  I have dozens more that look just like these.  Go figure.   ;)

 

So...relaxed coils or structured coils.

 

Chuck

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Hemp rope is indeed very stiff when compared to modern 'soft' ropes, but I think that the perfect circular coils on the models of that era is probably more due to how the material used at scale coiled rather than how it might have looked on the real ships of the era.

 

Hemp rope is stiff enough that it would probably coil on the deck in a nice circle, but not of a single strand thickness, rather probably 3-4 rope strands thickness could maintain a shape while stacking vertically.

 

As for the hanging coils, the hemp probably wouldn't fall into the coils like I did on my AVS without being wrapped in the center, but I don't think they would be nearly the perfect circle that you see in those photo's of the models either.  Likely they would have been closer to your coils unless they were coiled very tightly (i.e. small coils).

 

I also imagine that the diameter of the line would have a pretty significant effect on how the rope coiled, but I'm not sure how much the greater weight would offset the stiffness of the larger diameter.  And then you have the question of how much of it was coiled wet, which would also effect how it coiled!

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The lines I have hanging are in much larger coils and may hang more naturally...I have images of hemp rope on ships looking like that.  BUT having said that...rope coils made on deck and meant to be kept neat....well that may be different and why I thought to make them tighter and more circular.

 

Take a look at this.  This is actually a training session in Maine on board a sailing ship.  I believe they may have been handled differently but I agree the old rope may have been very stiff indeed.  But who knows in the end.   The only real way to make the coils on deck more natural would be to make them very sloppy as if a drunken sailor made them.  If they coiled them like this fella it looks pretty plausible.   And pretty easy to make a good circle of coils.  I imagine the sailors got quite good at it very quickly.

 

ropecoils3.jpg

 

vs. hanging

 

ropecoils4.jpg

 

and my interpretation for comparison...

 

carronrigged.jpg

 

Chuck

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Hi Chuck

 

I like the way that you did the ropes. Coil those on the deck but keep the ones hanging natural exactly like you have them.

Maybe relax the coiled ones on the deck slightly so that they look more like the third picture of the contempory models, your's is maybe a bit to perfect :rolleyes:

 

Cheers

 

Deon

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one thing that comes to mind is deck conditions, i would imagine that coiled rope on the deck would roll and move, especially if the ship was in heavy seas. hanging would seam logical for busy ships or rough weather, or anything other than at port or a special occasion. then again, its up to our own interpretation 

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Ropes on deck at sea are not usually feasible. To begin with, in any rough weather and has been mentioned, lines adjacent to each other would get tangled together, which is not a good idea, and there is the fact that they could potentially cause accidents, tripping etc. Then there is the damp problem. A wet rope on deck hold moisture far longer than one hung up and even modern ropes will disintegrate eventually through rot. 

 

The only real place for running rigging is for it to be belayed on its designated pin. From my own experience, the only time I have seen a large part of the 'spagetti' on deck is when the ship is tacking, wearing, or carrying out some other sail evolution. At most other times, the lines are coiled and tidily hung from their pins out of the way and ready for use

 

Regarding the coils themselves, they are normally coiled on deck in an oval shape to begin with, and even hemp ones will sag under their own weight.  Chuck, the coil in your first photo seems very small and not the normal size for most running rigging. Perhaps it was for some special purpose?

 

To me, the coils shown on the models seem not to reflect the way things were done at sea, where all the above would apply, but rather perhaps a modelmakers convention. At that scale, perhaps they couldn't all be belayed in their proper places.

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Chuck, all I can say is your coils good great and if you ever decide to market them at Syren please let me know I'll be first in line.  For the life of me I can't make a decent rope coil.

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Endless,

 

I agree, they are not and this is sometimes how such models are displayed – although there are many other such models with the rigging belayed to pins. In reality even in port with the sails furled, the rigging would normally still be belayed to its pin.

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I am not sure I agree with you Kester.   But I do think that is what makes the hobby interesting.   For now the coils will stay as is.  I think they look head over over heels better than most other attempts I have seen and I can live with them.  There is always the next model too!!!   ;)  I have never seen so much scrutiny on rope coils.  

 

I am just glad they came out neatly.   Most times I see them modeled they look like they been smashed together from over handling and too much glue.   Just getting a clean coil for a change is a welcome thing.  

 

Chuck

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Yep. They all look good to me. I think they look great in perfect pristine condition as they match the condition of the ship itself. If one was going to weather the ship, then something else would be in order. But I like it all as is.

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They look great, Chuck. I think one of the hardest things to do is create realistic looking rope, along with it's natural tendency to drape properly. It's most likely a scaling issue I believe. Oddly enough, it seems in order to achieve a realistic catenary, like the gentle drooping of the stays, a wire core seems to work best (at small scales). Many of the models in Annapolis show this graceful catenary but most of them were rigged with silk, a material which naturally drapes over time.

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Chuck, thanks for your response, and for all the rest regarding my question. If the coils are to be left on deck I would suspect from a purely practical point of view, it would be a short term thing. Your photograph of the modern rope coil appears much more natural in the same manner that those in your third picture appear. Gravity would have a pretty quick effect on a moving deck and the coils would most likely slump a little most probably to one side.

 

Your thoughts about old time contemporary feel make sense, Conventions are always interesting in my view "we've always done it that way" the implication of course, why change?

 

It's most likely a scaling issue I believe. Oddly enough, it seems in order to achieve a realistic catenary, like the gentle drooping of the stays, a wire core seems to work best

 Greg you raise a good point

Many years ago I built a model for a court case in which the client won, it was of an electrical power line set up that during a storm caused a fire and destroyed a business, the city was sued for negligence. The only way I could accurately depict the catenary curves of the hanging cables was to use extremely fine HO model chain for all the wires.

 

Finally Chuck in your own picture the coil on the extreme left looks the most convincing to me.

 

Cheers Michael 

Edited by michael mott

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I am travelling at the moment and on very dodgy connections, so cannot access my usual resources, but I remember a lengthy discussion about this on MSW1. At that time mention was made of the practice off frapping the ropes round the gun tackles, except on the occasions in the Navy when inspections were carried out. On those occasions the ropes were laid in coils on the deck. I don't think anyone has mentioned this idea on this thread so far, so thought I'd bring it up.

 

It's what I decided to do (in a very clumsy way) on my Sherbourne model.

 

Tony

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Thanks....for all the comments.

 

I am not a big fan of the frapping.  I also dislike the french coils on deck.   I prefer the simple coil on deck.   Hopefully I can get in the shop soon to start the other five guns.   Waiting on an electrician at the moment and then I will start back on making rope and blocks.   

 

 

Chuck

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