Swift 1805 by giantdog - Artesania Latina - first build

[themadchemist]

One of the reasons I stay away from CA and planking is that it can fill the pores/grain of the wood and then show when oiling where the oil won't absorb properly. Staining will make this more evident where the stain won't take.

 

Did you try eraser? I've gotten some pencil off that way, but usually I scrape or sand. Single edge blade razors make a cheap card scraper, if you don't have one. I got a set of the small 1" x 2" scrapers from Lee Valley and it is one of my most used tools.

 

Was that an issue with the thread, If one sanded too deep, would the thread fuzz or fray? Being incased in harden PVA I would think not, but I see strange compatibility issues on builds. I remember someone using paper blacked with sharpie as hull caulk. It was GORGEOUS, especially with the 1000's of treenails. Then when the finish was applied the sharpie soaked into the wood.

Of course that's not as bad as the story I heard about a builder finishing the last line of rigging throwing the excess off the table to cut and having the Admiral vacuuming and the rope getting picked up by the spinning brush and dragging the build to its death of splinters. You hear and see all kinds of things in build logs and its how we learn by sharing experiences.

 

Heck if you dress out the lower deck, even with doors opened, little will be seen. but a few barrels or other deck furnishings and it will never been seen. As I built the older kit I didn't even both to make the doors open on the one deckhouse I left.

 

I just love when someone falls in love with this hobby, as I know exactly what it feels like and it hasn't stopped for me in 2 years. The wealth of information and variations of vessels gives one a lifetime of Fun. the learning curve is long, but not too steep if one puts themselves into building and learning. Plus the MSW community just plain makes it FUN.

[giantdog]

One of the reasons I stay away from CA and planking is that it can fill the pores/grain of the wood and then show when oiling where the oil won't absorb properly. Staining will make this more evident where the stain won't take.

 

Did you try eraser? I've gotten some pencil off that way, but usually I scrape or sand. Single edge blade razors make a cheap card scraper, if you don't have one. I got a set of the small 1" x 2" scrapers from Lee Valley and it is one of my most used tools.

 

Was that an issue with the thread, If one sanded too deep, would the thread fuzz or fray? Being incased in harden PVA I would think not, but I see strange compatibility issues on builds. I remember someone using paper blacked with sharpie as hull caulk. It was GORGEOUS, especially with the 1000's of treenails. Then when the finish was applied the sharpie soaked into the wood.

Of course that's not as bad as the story I heard about a builder finishing the last line of rigging throwing the excess off the table to cut and having the Admiral vacuuming and the rope getting picked up by the spinning brush and dragging the build to its death of splinters. You hear and see all kinds of things in build logs and its how we learn by sharing experiences.

 

Heck if you dress out the lower deck, even with doors opened, little will be seen. but a few barrels or other deck furnishings and it will never been seen. As I built the older kit I didn't even both to make the doors open on the one deckhouse I left.

 

I just love when someone falls in love with this hobby, as I know exactly what it feels like and it hasn't stopped for me in 2 years. The wealth of information and variations of vessels gives one a lifetime of Fun. the learning curve is long, but not too steep if one puts themselves into building and learning. Plus the MSW community just plain makes it FUN.

I did use an eraser, you should have seen it after just one rub of the sand paper. Black as coal.

I couldn't believe it.

I used a small diamond file in the end and in fairness it does look worse on the photographs.

 

I'm enjoying the thinking as much if not more than the actual doing.

 

I've already started looking at bits on this kit I don't like and intend to change and already started dreaming of the next build.

[Grimber]

I like the build so far.  Was thinking about your pencil problem as I have been thinking about 'planking nails' too.  I've been so far leaning to the possability ... a hair brush. they have many different sized bristles and are made of nylon.  should be able to find a cheap one with large enough bristles so they can fit and be easy to sand vs using a wire.

 

Oh  and I would mabey try an eraser bag, vs a straight rubber pink eraser.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Grimber

[giantdog]

CA? Is that like super glue?

 

I'm using this stuff.

 

 

Not done much today as busy at work so just put the inner decks ends on (I'm almost certain they're not called that).

 

 

Edited October 14, 2014 by giantdog

[giantdog]

Quick question.

 

The stern blockhead.

I've added the balsa filler blocks and started sanding. 

 

I've started to feather the block head to line through to the second rearmost bulk head (on the right as you look at the photo).

Is this the way to go?

Keep fairing until the balsa fill is flush?

 

 

started this side.

 

 

Not touched this side yet (apart from roughing out)

 

 

Thank you very much for any advice you can give, it really is greatly appreciated 

Edited October 14, 2014 by giantdog

[themadchemist]

yes,

CA is cyanoacrylate, better known as superglue, crazy-glue....
PVA is Polyvinyl acetate or Elmers, wood glue....

 

These are the 2 most commonly used glues in building. Sometimes epoxy is called for also.

 

Personally I stick with PVA exclusively for anything wood to wood anymore.

Although I used CA on the canoe, I think that build changed my mind on using CA. PVA forces us to slow down and gives us time to properly position pieces, while CA I find works to quickly for my taste. 

 

Midwest actually recommended CA for the canoe build, it even had you wipe the hull of the canoe with CA to seal it. That's why I still have never added a finish to the petersboro as I'm afraid it will blotch. The CA did eliminate basswood's fuzz issues though. I sanded to 1000 grit and its as smooth as glass, but I'd hate to ruin it by adding a finish and having it blotchy. There are so many things to consider while building and it's a learn by experience process. Some builder Love CA, and I always say use what works for you. CA can have some nasty allergic reactions also, I know some users that can't use it without consequences.

 

My reasoning is this, with CA you can force a piece in place, where with PVA I need to have the piece shaped better before gluing. This slows me down and makes me work shaping each piece much more before gluing. I believe this helps me be a better builder.

As you get to planking, you find some very crooked planks are needed to fit the hull curvature. Shaping and fitting them better requires less aggressive clamping. It very relaxing for me, I tend to zone out while planking. It is one of my favorite parts. Its one reasosn I stopped the DSotM and built the longboat, to get a planking fix.

[themadchemist]

that's where the older swift really differs a lot, there is no back bulkhead at the transom on the old kit. So I just used my eye.

 

Here are some progression pics of mine at this stage as digging through my log would be a nightmare

 

 

Edited October 14, 2014 by themadchemist

[themadchemist]

Looking closely at your stern bulkhead, it looks as if you have faired it possibly before adding the balsa?

 

In the photo it appears that the bevel on the right has reduced the width at the top of the bulkhead and the bevel may be too steep.

The best way to check is by laying a plank across it and see if it lays right. Is the run smooth or wavy. That is how I shaped mine.

 

If there is to much taken off that right stern bulkhead. glue on a shim (strip of planking) and start over. Everything is fixable.

[Grimber]

for deck plate glue I'm going to use a clear gel glue.  Won't discolor the wood, doesn't soak through the wood like CA will so if I'm liberal with it and it doesn't get on the plank visible surfaces it shouldn't be an issue with finishing.  anything visible I'd try to get a clear adhesive ( not just dries clear but is clear from the start)

 

for the stern I'm about up to that part on my ship as well.  difference in mine vs keiths is mine didn't have solid blocks but pre cut down and they wer pre cut too far and so I'm filling.    Also the drawing show a pronounced concave curvature to the block from last bulkhead to the back of the stern right along the keel board and then tappers off as you get out away from the keel.

 

 

I figure I'd have to make a template of that line along the keel out of stock cardboard, using that to get the line along the keel surface, then get the outter most edge of the block to bulkhead worked down then slowly work the transition between the 2 sides

[GuntherMT]

I like Titebond wood glue, but I'd suggest switching to the original Titebond, as when you mess up (if you are like me, it will happen), the original Titebond can be freed up by soaking with water.  Titebond II like you are using is waterproof, so will be much more difficult to do any needed deconstruction, and there should be no reason to need to waterproof a static wooden model like this.

[themadchemist]

Personally I use Elmers carpenter woodglue Max, it is an interior/exterior glue which claims waterproof and stainable.
Most PVA glues dry clear so I don't see a problem with color, I'm more interested in wood absorption as this prevents later staining or oiling from penetrating the wood. I used the above glue for making cherry filler for filling micro gaps in the 2nd planking and had no interference when tung oil was applied to the hull. It has worked for me and its been a constant throughout my DSotM build.

Dan Vadas has a tutorial on using glue and sanding dust for filling, that's worth a look.
http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/814-how-i-fix-boo-boos-and-oopsies-mistakes-by-dan-vadas-share-your-own-fixes-here/
 
As far as waterproof? I've deconstructed using only water, so being waterproof  doesn't seem to be an issue. The transom removal from my longboat happened over a month after gluing also, so it was still removable after a long drying period. I did use isopropyl for that removal IIRC though, rather then water.
 
That removal is here, post #100, you will also notice on that page the dowel sanding sticks in various grits I made for detail sanding. I use many diameter dowels and grits, they are cheap to make and very handy.
http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/4510-longboat-by-themadchemist-tmc-ms-small-90mm-of-holly-and-ebony/page-7
 
There are many discussions on glues in forum threads and I've come to the conclusion that its like picking a favorite color or politics. Each person picks what they prefer and that usually takes using and experiencing with how each works for the job. I don't know how many glues I have, more then 10, maybe 20. Experiment and see what suits you is my best advise.
 
On getting the compound concave shape leading into the stern, which Grimber refers to, I suggest using a plank and testing the run for the shaping process. The stern of the DSotM was shaped with rasps, then sandpaper wrapped dowels to maintain the concave shape. 
 
The tools used for shaping the stern.
 
 
Since the transitions from bulkhead to bulkhead must be smooth, the best way to verify is by seeing how the plank lays across them. In Shaping the planks for the biggest part thru the stern upsweep, you will find that you have some very crooked planks.

Here is one after wetting and clamping it to the frame to dry. This is also before any narrowing, edge beveling or spiling occurred.

[giantdog]

Looking closely at your stern bulkhead, it looks as if you have faired it possibly before adding the balsa?

 

In the photo it appears that the bevel on the right has reduced the width at the top of the bulkhead and the bevel may be too steep.

The best way to check is by laying a plank across it and see if it lays right. Is the run smooth or wavy. That is how I shaped mine.

 

If there is to much taken off that right stern bulkhead. glue on a shim (strip of planking) and start over. Everything is fixable.

No, I only started fairing when the balsa fills where fitted and I've used sand paper wrapped around a drum stick to sand.

What I'm finding is that lining the straight sanding stick through seems to be taking lots off the rear bulkhead?

To get full contact of planking on bulkhead looks like it'll take lots of bulkhead away?

[themadchemist]

The method I found most useful was to make the sanding stick about the length between your thumb and index finger, with 1 to 1.5 inches of sand paper on one end. Let the paperless end ride the inner bulkheads and there is no way the sandpaper can hit the rear bulkhead until the balsa is low enough for that.
Using the stick like a block sander and the bulkheads as the riding surface. Making it fit your thumb and index finger allows you to sand without knocking knuckles on the bulkheads

There is no such thing as too many sanding sticks. This set I made for the longboat build in various grits and with the end cut at a bevel and paper CA'd to the end. Its a VERY handy set of smaller sanding sticks. I color coded them with colored pencils to help in grabbing them without having to looking at the grit label

[giantdog]

What a great idea Themadchemist, I'll certainly have a go at making some.

 

I'm not too sure what went wrong with rear bulkhead but as my dear old Dad used to say 'a man who never mad a mistake never made anything'.

 

With that in mind I find sometimes it's easier to get something right in the first place rather than trying to put it right, if that makes sense.

I notice on the other build logs, the builds do not seem to have the rear bulkhead at all?

 

Sooo

I've decided to start the stern end again.

Chop the fillers and rear bulkhead out.

 

 

and sand down.

 

 

Just deciding whether to make a replacement bulkhead or just use balsa filler.

 

Edited October 15, 2014 by giantdog

[themadchemist]

The older AL swift kits have no stern bulkhead, but the newer versions (those with below deck areas) have a bulkhead.

 

I agree 100% with your Dad, I always told my students:

Show me someone that has never failed and I'll show you a person that has attempted nothing beyond what they know. Failure is the proof of doing, if one doesn't want to fail, do nothing, but expect nothing also. Babe Ruth struck out more times then he hit Home Run, but nobody remembers those, because he never quit swinging.

Failure doesn't mean your wrong, it means you just found another way NOT to do it.

 

One of my biggest struggles was not knowing how far to sand as there was no bulkhead, so I just let the curvature of the bulkheads and the lay of a plank make that decision for me. I ended up taking much more away then I expected to get the plank lay right, its a nerve racking process when its your 1st time and the AL instructions were so poor. The newer instructions may be better, but I doubt it.

Honestly though, I'm thankful for the poor instructions, as having to figure things out myself and getting help from others from the MSW community, gave me a freedom in building from which, I've never looked back.

 

I've also made friends I can't imagine not having. The community of MSW is such an outstanding resource and I have never asked a person a question, where I didn't get more information then expected, from everything like picking out tools and ship plans to how to bend ebony or photo-etch brass. One has but to ask, I always felt honored that experienced builders with decades of experience would answer the questions of a new builder with a $30 ebay kit. I don't think I'd be where I am today without this community. This is when I realized this hobby also filled an emotional void lacking since my disability. I pay back all I know, to tribute those that helped me. Encouragement is a strong force in a hobby with so many struggles and one can never have too many friends. 

 

I was thinking this morning about the past 2 years since I started building and I've probably spend 2/3 or more of my build time not touching a kit but rather at a keyboard, mouse or with a book. I ended up in graduate school purely because they paid me to be there and it was free as long as I TA'd classes, But mostly I did it because it was FUN.

I love research, both the mental and tactile aspects. I built my own research instrument in grad school, as funds weren't available otherwise and that taught me a great deal of self-reliance.

After disability, ship/boat building has given me something to fill both my mental needs and also my tactile needs .... and as with grad school I seem to spend most of the time in the library.

the bonus I never expected was the emotional support

 

There is nothing you cant fix. To prove that point look at this overhaul Dan Vadas did for a friend whose father passed way and so he completed the Vicky as a kind gesture.

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/4965-restoring-and-finishing-a-very-rough-del-prado-hms-victory-by-dan-vadas/

 

Its hard to believe but this is before.

 

 

 

and After.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2014 by themadchemist

[Grimber]

That is a HUGE facelift to that ship.

 

giantdog I would try and make a replacement rear bulkhead if you have the materials and still have the outline of it to follow.  but if you want to go with just the balsa I would then make a pattern of it out of some stock cardboard ( like a cereal box) and draw it on so you have a guide when sanding.

 

I ran into my own aft end issues today as I been working on it ( I'll post it in my log later tonight after work through this)

[themadchemist]

I agree with Tony,

if you don't replace the bulkhead, at least mark it so you have a guideline to shoot for, but I'd trust the lay of the plank most of all, but it never hurts to have a idea of where the stop should be.

[giantdog]

What a great point well made Themadchemist, it really is an honour being here.

 

Grimber, I've made a replacement bulkhead out of the off cut ply that the original was cut out of.

 

I may

 

• glue that in place.
• leave it off and use the hole lift in the parts board to mark my pattern on the balsa.

I sleep on it.

 

But thank you all so much for taking the time to look and read my log.

[themadchemist]

I answer to themadchemist but also tmc or just plain Keith, which will save on typing. Just don't call me late for supper   

 

Actually one of the best things one can do is sleep on an idea. Any time I try and push through anything I haven't thought out well, it seems I just make a mess I have to re-fix once I wake up the next day.

 

Rushing seems to slow things down.

[giantdog]

Stern part two.

 

I've decided to fit the replacement rear bulkhead and add new balsa in-fills.

I've started to rough them down and will finalise when I do the fairing.

Not much progress as I've been away.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2014 by giantdog

[Grimber]

the shape is good and you will even out that little bit of bulkhead sticking out when you taper the hull for the prep for planking. 

Edited October 19, 2014 by Grimber

[giantdog]

I seem to spending a lot of time thinking at the moment, planking haunts me lol.

I'm reading reading and reading and reading, some is going in and some isn't.

 

Fairing is next

But

 

How do you fair to the line of where the planks will lie without marking where the planks will lie, if that makes any sense?

[themadchemist]

Once done fairing you typically put on the sheer plank, the top one under the bulwarks and the garboard, the one next to the keel. Then use a planking fan to mark how much to thin the planks at each bulkhead.

 

Here is a link to BobF's longboat which does a wonderful job of showing this process.

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/1465-18th-century-longboat-by-bobf-ms-148-tri-club/page-2

[giantdog]

one of the issues is that bulkhead 6 or the port side seems to have a 2mm gap. This is before any fairing.

The keel is straight and the inner deck fits fine.

 

 

The starboard side seems fine.

 

 

I've measured and there is indeed 2mm more on the port side.

Looks like shim it is?

Edited October 23, 2014 by giantdog

[giantdog]

Once done fairing you typically put on the sheer plank, the top one under the bulwarks and the garboard, the one next to the keel. Then use a planking fan to mark how much to thin the planks at each bulkhead.

 

Here is a link to BobF's longboat which does a wonderful job of showing this process.

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/1465-18th-century-longboat-by-bobf-ms-148-tri-club/page-2

Yes, I was looking at the last night.

I think I've got it.

 

Heavy emphasis on 'think I've got it'

[Grimber]

Same thing happened to me on my bulkheads, even after I tried to make sure they were centered port to starboard I still had one get off.  Had to shim that one to get the fairing right.  Also ended up with a bulkhead that was just cut smaller then it should have been ( #4 ) that needed shimming as well.  Ended up being a very early lesson learned to check the bulkhead sizes before installing to see if they were cut evenly and take good measurements while installing and be ready to correct factory mistakes.

[giantdog]

Currently rigging up my stainless steel  fish steamer and wall paper steam stripper combo.

 

In readiness for bending.

 

[giantdog]

Same thing happened to me on my bulkheads, even after I tried to make sure they were centered port to starboard I still had one get off.  Had to shim that one to get the fairing right.  Also ended up with a bulkhead that was just cut smaller then it should have been ( #4 ) that needed shimming as well.  Ended up being a very early lesson learned to check the bulkhead sizes before installing to see if they were cut evenly and take good measurements while installing and be ready to correct factory mistakes.

It's certainly had me scratching my head all right.

Did you find that the inner deck bulkheads don't come anywhere near the underside of the false deck?

[Grimber]

The main deck has a compound curve: bow to stern then also starboard to port so the false deck has to be bent both ways at once to fit. It's that way on both your newer version and my older version of the swift.

 

[themadchemist]

Hey giantdog,

Tony (Grimber) is building the old kit so no lower decks there. I think this is where the newer kit may be a bit harder in fitting the deck.

The outer deck edges should lay on the reduced bulkheads (at least they are thicker) in the lower deck region, but in the middle there is no support, of course there is not much to support as the deck holes are MUCH larger on the newer kit.

 

Not haven't deal with the newer kit, I can not say with any degree of accuracy as to how difficult maintaining the compound curve is going to be especially around the openings. Tony used an ingenious gluing jig that may help in retaining the deck in place while the glue dries. I attempted preshaping but only created a twist in the deck. Until now the deck is the only place I had to resort to CA glue, but then I didn't have a gluing jig, which I would if doing over.

 

The lower deck bulkheads shouldn't be close to the deck holes though, as they designed it so you can finish the lower deck and have the cabin doors open for display below. This isn't really an option on the older kit as the deck openings are very much smaller. 

 

As far as the bulkhead 6, make sure to measure both bulkheads on either side of the bulkhead in question, as a high bulkhead in one place will make the bulkhead to plank appear short on another bulkhead. If 5 or 7 are high (or both) then it will effect 6. Once the deck is on I would draw a pencil centerline down the deck and measure widths at every bulkhead and see how things look. I personally had to add deck to a section that was short and Tony had to add decking to the holes as his deck fit strangely.

With the many issues I've seen in the Swift builds, it makes me wonder how many versions there are. Both mine and Tony's is the older design, but his deck definitely fit different then mine and it wasn't me or him, it was the way the deck was cut. My box was stamped 1982 and IIRC his was 1985...

 

Oh the joys of fairing