Treenails

[wallyh]

I'm just completing the deck planking on my Fair American and am wondering about tree nails. Should I add them? If so. I would appreciate any help that you could give me, ie, size of drill to use, etc. If this has already been answered perhaps you could point me to the right spot.

Thanks, Wally

[mtaylor]

I'll give you link to all the topics in this area.... <evil grin> http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&fromMainBar=1

 

Seriously, it's a matter of personal choice.  You're the captain and it's your ship.  As for size... depends on the scale.

[hornet]

Agree with Brian. The Byrnes draw plate makes a tedious task pleasant. Well not quite pleasant, but at least you end up with very good quality tree nails relatively quickly.

 

Whatever you do, don't be tempted to buy a cheap draw plate on eBay. Not worth a pinch of.........!!!!

Edited October 25, 2014 by hornet

[hornet]

Less tedious than fitting copper plates I suppose but both look really exceptional if done well. Something every modeller should attempt .... at least once!

[Chuck Seiler]

Generally, deck planks are not trunn'led.  They were bolted in place in a counter sunk hole with a wooden plug over top.  Wooden trunn'l/wooden plug?  What's the diff?  Plugs are side grain and tree nails are end grain.  At smaller scales it matters not.  At larger scales it might.

[wallyh]

Thanks to all for your replies. The scale of the ship is 1:48. And, I'm ashamed to say, I have a Byrnes drawplate that I can't seem to work!

I was using bamboo skewers but not getting luck with drawing. I will try again this morning - what size should I be shooting for>

Thanks again, Wally

[russ]

Wally:

Make sure you are drawing from the correct side of the plate. Insert the material through the flat side of the plate and draw it through, pulling from the countersunk side of the hole. Split the bamboo down to something that is several holes above where you want to finish and then begin drawing the material through the hole. Do not try to pull a piece that is too thick. Always pull it several times through the same hole before moving to the next hole.

 

Russ

[wq3296]

Greetings Wally,

 

In my opinion, I wouldn't bother with trying to show any deck fasteners. Even at 1:48 scale, assuming the real fastener is no more than 11/2" dia., your looking at a scale dia. .02" - .03". Look at an architect's scale for 1/4"=1' (1:48) and you will get an idea of how small a scale inch is. Take a look at a model with treenail decks and you will see that they over power the look and become the center of attention. 

 

wq3296

[russ]

At 1/48 scale, an inch would be .020" diameter. If you choose to show treenails, this is very doable with some practice. Like Mark said, it is your choice.

 

Russ

[JPett]

Ahoy Mates

 

Anyone who follows my builds knows I like treenails. This whole argument about scale amuses me. Really how many rigging components are anywhere near scale; but we all seem to enjoy adding them. Build something you enjoy looking at, not something that is going in a museum as a scale replica, or to meet the expectations of others. Having a treenail out of scale or slightly more visible would not even make the list of mistakes on most builds. Nor would it rate when compared to the mistakes the manufacturer has already built into most kits.  Many scratch builder use treenails so we won't even go there 

 

One additional note about treenails: They will strengthen your kit considerably and prevent planks from springing years down the road, which for me makes them worth the effort . Not to mention they can look really good and represent that actual construction method used. 

 

Brought to you by the committee to stop treenail abuse 

Edited October 25, 2014 by JPett

[Boatsinc2000]

Primary difference between Jim's draw plate and a jeweler's drawplate is that a jeweler's drawplate is designed to compress metal whereas Jim's is designed to cut wood.  That's why jeweler's drawplates don't work well for treenails.

 

Jeff

[hornet]

In my opinion treenails would be visible on the deck of a 1:48 scale model.

 

Check out the pic of the deck of the Endeavour replica that I uploaded on another thread

which recently discussed the merits of treenailing.

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/8317-to-treenail-or-not-to-treenail/

 

In addition, I also had some difficulty with the Byrnes drawplate initially. I ended up making a small tool to cut down the bamboo to a size easily pulled through the plate. See it on the following thread:

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/2959-treenail-detail-option/

 

I use a pair of pointy nosed pliers to pull the bamboo through. Pull through each hole a couple of times and only go down one hole size at a time.

[wallyh]

Thanks for all the help and ideas for my treenail "problem". I managed to do about 4' of BBQ skewer today, so far I've passed them through the number 55 hole on the drawplate - is this OK for the 1:48 scale? What size drill should I be using?

As always, thanks so much  - I can't tell you how much I've learned on this site.

Wally

[hornet]

I think on 1:48 you would need to take it down quite a bit further than No 55. Someone more qualified than me may disagree (I have treenailed the deck of a 1:48 and 1:36) but I would suggest around 0.6 diameter which means about number 25

 

I think deck treenails (or plugs) were from 25mm to 35 mm in diameter in real life (1:1). I have a really great little Ap on my phone and iPad. It is called Modelscaler. You input the 1:1 size and the scale and the Ap will give you the scaled down size. In this case 1:48 and using about 30mm as the actual size of the treenail/ plug, the size of the scaled down treenail would be 0.625mm. This would be about No 24 - 25

Edited October 26, 2014 by hornet

[JPett]

Ahoy Wally

 

I use a Dremel. Adds warp drive to the draw plate 

 

The holes you drill should be slightly larger then the treenails. Without glue they should slide right in and come out with ease. Dilute wood glue, dip the treenail and send it home. The water will cause the wood to swell and make for a tight fit. once dry I use a pair of sprue cutters to snip them off. Then sand. 

 

Remember: Your kit is not for testing. That's what all those scraps are for. 

Edited October 26, 2014 by JPett

[hornet]

Hi JPett

 

Just wondering, do you have many twist offs when you engage 'Warp Drive' or do you just draw very short pieces of bamboo through the plate. I tend to pull long pieces of bamboo through and I would think they would twist off very easily when attached to a dremel, even on the lowest speed setting.

Edited October 26, 2014 by hornet

[hornet]

Hi again JPett

 

Just tried your warp drive method on a short (3cm long) piece of bamboo. It worked a treat. Thanks for the great tip!!!

[JPett]

Ahoy Hornet

 

You can't beat the speed. I can sit and make hundreds in less time then it took me to pull 20   

 

Plus you can spin down woods like Mahogany and basswood that you could probably never pull 

Edited October 26, 2014 by JPett

[allanyed]

BRIAN C

What is the smallest diameter you achieve with silver ash? I normally pull down to smallest hole on the Byrne's draw plate with bamboo but have never found another material that can be worked that small.

Allan

[JPett]

Ahoy Aussie

 

I started with round toothpicks but now use anything I can fit in the Dremel chuck. The toothpick is a perfect size however.  Just cut your choice of wood into strips 2mm by 2mm and and about the length of a toothpick then plug them into the chuck. I generally use the largest collet in the chuck.. Then start pushing them through the draw-plate on the flat side. The length and how many treenails will be determined by your wood choice and the size of the treenail you want. I have actually used non wood items too. . With softer woods you might only be able to do enough for one treenail at a time.  I can push hardwoods through about an inch all the way down to the smallest hole but usually don't. Its just not worth the effort. Once I install a few treenails the wood just goes back in the Dremel for another round. I make a few, install a few, and then make some more. Once you find your rhythm you can do quite a few in a very short amount of time.  

 

When I make the treenails out of strips I usually have a piece of sandpaper near by. Once I turn on the Dremel it only takes a second to put a point on the wood to help guide the first pass. I also use the flex shaft but have made them with out it. 

Edited October 26, 2014 by JPett

[wallyh]

Well, back again, with all the help here I've managed to get a few pieces of bamboo down to 25 on the Byrnes drawplate. Next up up is a test on some planking, Would a size 75 drill be OK? Is there a depth for the treenails?

Thanks again, Wally

[hornet]

Hi Wallyh

 

No 75 may be a bit too tight. I've done a few conversions to metric (which we use in Australia) No 75 drill equates to a little over 0.5mm. No 25 on the Byrnes drawplate equated to a little over 0.6 mm. I think you may need about a size 71 drill bit which is about 0.66mm. You don't want the treenail too tight. It should slip into place fairly smoothly when dry. A small dob of glue on the end will then slide up the sides between the treenail and the plank/ deck when you glue it down. As to depth, just don't drill right through the deck. Deep enough so it is firmly in place. My suggestion is to do a few on a piece of scrap wood until you are confident about the drill bit diameter and depth. On your model is no place to experiment!!

[allanyed]

I've used, tape, black, blue, and red marker to mark the depth on the drill bit to avoid going too deep and passing through the deck beams and frames.

 

Allan

[davyboy]

The easiest way to control the depth you want is to push the drill bit into the chuck,collet or pin vice leaving only the length you require protruding. No need for tape or colour marking the drill. Also less chance of breaking a small diam drill. Works every time for me

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[allanyed]

Dave,

 

YOURS IS A BETTER WAY

 

Allan

[wallyh]

I'm back again with another question. I've got the tree nails down to the right size I think, took them down to 25 on the draw plate and the number 71 drill bit seems right - thanks for that tip. 

My question  - what do you use for cutting and finishing (sanding ?) the bamboo tree nails?

Wally

[hornet]

I don't sand the deck beforehand. After fitting a treenail, I use a pair of small cutters that I keep very sharp with a diamond sharpening stone ( so as not to crush the bamboo treenails). I can cut the treenails practically flush to the deck with this cutter. I then sand the deck and treenails with very fine grit sandpaper - try not to over sand as deck planks are often very thin. I have recently bought a proxxon pen sander which I will use to get into tight corners of the deck of my current build - the 'Supply' - when I reach the deck planking/ tree nailing stage of the build.

Edited November 10, 2014 by hornet

[Mark P]

Hi everyone;

 

Two points arise after reading the thread above: 

 

Reference the use of trunnels to fix deck planking,  I have a copy of a wonderfully interesting and highly-detailed contract for the building of the 74-gun ship 'HMS Culloden'.  The contract is hand-written,  dated 1770,  and amounts to over 80 A3 size pages,  detailing virtually every timber and fastening in the ship.  When describing the deck planking of the gun-deck,  this states that each plank is to be fastened as follows:  to each deck beam with a 5/8" bolt & a nail,  and one treenail to every ledge.

 

This obviously only describes naval practice,  but dockyards generally aimed at producing the best workmanship,  with cost slightly less important than the longevity of the finished result.

 

For anyone interested in obtaining a copy of the Culloden contract,  the NMM reference is ADT0166.

 

Concerning the actual use of treenails on models,  one very effective method,  if it is not desired to add scale ones for strength or appearance,  is to drill or prick a scale-sized hole,  and fill it with a suitable filler,  usually glue & sawdust,  and a colouring agent.

 

Mark P