Let's talk 3D printers.

[Keith_W]

I have been doing some research on 3D printers. I am planning to make some rail stanchions. Question is - do I feel like turning 100 of these on my lathe, or would it be easier to draw up a design on CAD and either buy a printer or get someone to print it for me?

 

I have looked around the market to see where 3D printers are at at the moment. There seem to be two main types which could be considered for home enthusiast. This is a quick run-down of the pros and cons I have learnt so far:

 

- SLA (Stereolithography). A plate is immersed in liquid resin, then spots on the resin are hardened by focusing a laser on it. When one layer is done, the plate is re-coated in resin and the process is repeated. When the print is done, the piece is removed from the plate (supposedly it needs to be chiselled off), washed in alcohol to remove excess resin, and supports trimmed off. Pros: extremely high resolution, in the order of 20-30 microns. Very fast. Very quiet. Cons: the printers are expensive (the cheapest seems to be the FormLabs, at $3800), the resin is expensive, and it is really messy. Also, larger sized printers are very expensive, but that won't matter to us because we are mostly after small size and precision.

 

- FFF (Fused Filament Fabrication) / FDM (Fused Deposition Modelling). By far the more common type. A plastic filament is fed into a heated nozzle, which moves around and deposits layers of plastic, building up the piece layer by layer. Pros: more affordable, machines as cheap as $1k. Filaments are cheap and available in many colours and textures. Cons: relatively low resolution, the best I have seen are 100 micron. Also, most inexpensive FFF printers require assembly, or are very small companies that received Kickstarter funding (I am quite wary of those), and I have read quite a few reports of unreliable printers that - if they are not producing misshapen prints, they suffer from hardware failure.

 

There are a few other types of printer on the market but I have not listed them.

 

Also note it is NOT my intention to sound like an expert, I am merely listing things I have learnt so far to put up for discussion!

 

I would like to know if any members have ventured into 3D printing. It may be quite useful for making many copies of parts that we find annoying to fabricate. Going over my current build, I would use a 3D printer to make:

 

- stanchions

- window frames

- boats

- gun carriages and guns

- ship's stove

 

The number of potential applications seems fairly long, which is why I am thinking of buying a 3D printer for myself. Question - do people think that 3D printers are a mature enough technology for the non-enthusiast or professional market? Is 100 Micron resolution "good enough"?

[JPZ66]

Actually, yes... I have been looking into this myself. It turns out that there is a manufacturer right down the street. This is an SLA type 3D laser printer. Full Spectrum Laser has a machine that has a print area of 7"w x 7"l x 9" h. Currently this unit is priced at $ 2795 they will tell you that they only support their resin product, but the machine is typical and will work with any of the resins on the market that polymerize in the 395-410 Nm range.

 

From what I have seen, the fidelity or finess of finished print of an SLA printer is far superior to any other type...at least in the below $5000 range of hobbyist or home type printers.

 

On the other hand, if you are making your own files, you can use a service bureau and not buy any printer or deal with any of the maintenance or material issues. Right now, I'm on the fence about which way I want to go for these very reasons. The other advantage of using a printing service is that they are typically printing much nicer, higher resolution parts on very upscale printers...many of which cost in excess of $50,000. This would also mean that you would have far less post print finishing to do before using the parts.

 

Either way, I can easily see that 3D printing technology is going to be a great tool. Of course, this is for those that are willing to accept non traditional materials and technologies for their miniature making. For fine museum quality scale model ships it may not be useful at all. It just can't replace the time honored craftsmanship of a true artist and the handcrafted parts of wood and brass that really make a scale model a piece of art.

 

Joe

Edited November 16, 2014 by JPZ66

[JerryTodd]

I had masters (from which I will cast the battery in resin) for my Macedonian's guns 3D printed; 5 32 pdr carronades and 5 18 pdr Bloomfield pattern guns is 1:36 scale - $250  That, BTW, was the "discounted price" because a friend was getting a bunch of other items printed as well.  5 of each was a minimum order

 

A company that digitally scanned the Macedonian figurehead at the naval academy found me online and offered to 3D print one in 1:36 scale for me for a mere $250.

 

I'm very happy with the quality of the guns but this isn't sustainable at all for someone like me.  There's no way I'm going for that figure head, or anything else for that matter, and there's a lot of things I'd love work up in CAD and just print - those god-forsaken trailboards on Constellation, for instance.  At $5 a gun, I would have had them print the entire battery, and come back for something else - as it is, they aren't going to see me again.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2014 by JerryTodd

[JPZ66]

I believe the best use for 3d printing is to use a bureau with a high quality printer for MASTERS...1 of each type of cannon that you need, and then use them to make molds and cast additional copies in resin. And there are places that will print one-offs...you will pay a bit more, but nowhere near the cost of having to print 5 of each item.

 

By doing this, you only have to clean up one of each type, ensure it is the best it can be and then you can cast as many as you like for a relatively low cost per piece. If you are not trying to make mass quantities, there are ways and materials to mold and cast with that won't cost you a ton of money.

 

Joe

[kurtvd19]

There is an article in the Summer (59.2) issue of the Nautical Research Journal that very thoroughly explains the pros and cons of each type of 3D printing currently available.  Pat Matthews wrote the article and was also a featured speaker at the NRG Conference in St. Louis in October where he showed and explained the limits and explored the possibilities of this new technology.  Pat uses 3D printing extensively in his profession as an engineer for Ford as well as in building some great award winning models.  He showed a large scale model boat built almost entirely from 3D printed parts as well as examples of parts not well suited for 3D printing (at least at this time).  The type of printing for the application is very important as some is easier to clean up than others.  Pat also pointed out that it isn't just as simple as doing the design in CAD and then ordering the parts as the services tend to place items into the printer that might not make for easy clean up due to the orientation the picked.  Pat told of the ways one can arrange the parts to take advantage of the actual process used for the part to make the clean up easier.

 

The points I took away from both the article and the talk at the conference was that it is not yet time for the modeler to invest in any of this equipment - use a service as they have the best technology that the individual just can't afford.

 

Kurt

[mtaylor]

There's been quite few posts/topics in the CAD area and the Traders/Dealers area on this.   The only thing at this point I see holding back the market is quality as the parts need clean up and price due to the set-up costs. 

[Keith_W]

Thanks for pointing out that article, Kurt. I went to the NRG webpage but unfortunately the article you mention is not available for purchase or download. In fact, no volumes are available for download after Vol. 40, as per their download page here: http://www.thenrg.org/past-nautical-research-journals.php#!/Buy-and-download-articles-from-past-issues-of-the-Nautical-Research-Journal/c/8560300/offset=0&sort=normal

 

I know that some NRG committee members frequent this site. Would it be possible to make this article available for purchase? I would really, really like to read it.

 

Kurt, if the parts "not suitable for 3D printing" are not in the article, would you be able to give us a brief run-down as to what is, and what is not possible? I know that a complex 3D part (like a lantern) may not be possible, but surely it is possible to break down the lantern into parts and then assemble it later?

 

Thank you also to everyone else for your input. I think buying a 3D printer may be the way to go. I can't sculpt, I can't carve, but I can certainly draw things on a computer and I don't mind cleaning up my models with a file.

Edited November 16, 2014 by KeithW

[JPZ66]

Actually, that's the beauty of a 3D printer...you CAN make a lantern...with the wick holder or candle inside ! I suggest you check out the SLA 3D printers, as they currently can't be matched for print quality or size of print area in the same price range. I was pretty blown away by the fully made, very intricate Eiffel Tower and the Rook with the internal staircase that I looked at first hand ! Again, I have no connection to them, other than gone and had a look at the machine and samples, but frankly, FSL ( Full Spectrum Laser ) looks like one of the best machines in the under $3000 price range that I have seen. I may well be buying their SLA 3D laser printer myself.

 

Joe

Edited November 17, 2014 by JPZ66

[JPZ66]

Something to keep in mind when you envision doing parts on a 3D printer. You can fill the entire print area with parts.... You take the original file to be used and you duplicate it so that you fill the entire X and Y axis... Say cannon barrels for example, printed on an SLA type printer... The barrels will be oriented vertically and you have 6" x 6" work area..... You can probably print 100 barrels at the same time ! ( 10 rows of 10 ). Yes it will take a while to do, but when it's done it's done. Of course you must weigh the factors of material cost and so forth. For very large quantities it may be cheaper to produce only a few, clean them up and then make a mold for casting them in resin. The other way to look at it is that you can fill the print area with many different parts and get them all done at the same time. It really is a fascinating technology, one that I am only beginning to grasp, but I can easily see the tremendous potential ! I do think that the equipment and processing will evolve a great deal over the next couple of years, as it seems that advancements are happening almost daily right now in the "hobbyist" section of the market.

 

Joe

[kurtvd19]

Thanks for pointing out that article, Kurt. I went to the NRG webpage but unfortunately the article you mention is not available for purchase or download. In fact, no volumes are available for download after Vol. 40, as per their download page here: http://www.thenrg.org/past-nautical-research-journals.php#!/Buy-and-download-articles-from-past-issues-of-the-Nautical-Research-Journal/c/8560300/offset=0&sort=normal

 

I know that some NRG committee members frequent this site. Would it be possible to make this article available for purchase? I would really, really like to read it.

 

Kurt, if the parts "not suitable for 3D printing" are not in the article, would you be able to give us a brief run-down as to what is, and what is not possible? I know that a complex 3D part (like a lantern) may not be possible, but surely it is possible to break down the lantern into parts and then assemble it later?

 

Thank you also to everyone else for your input. I think buying a 3D printer may be the way to go. I can't sculpt, I can't carve, but I can certainly draw things on a computer and I don't mind cleaning up my models with a file.

Keith:

I will check into making this article available for downloading from our NRG Store.  

The type of parts not suitable for printing at this time are stanchions and hand rails that are better done in photo etch as well as things like the telescoping or lifting towers of fire boats - originals are of strip steel with numerous "X" cross braces - again better done in photo etch.  Essentially these are thin cross section parts w/o strength at the scale thicknesses - the parts that traditional injection molding has not reproduced well either.

Kurt

 

[JPZ66]

Here are some photos I scrounged off the web, that give a little sample of what a 3D printer can do....Note that the battleship gun turrets are printed in ONE piece, yet they are ARTICULATED ! - Joe

[mtaylor]

Whoa.. those are impressive, Joe.  3D printing is still in it's infancy, either for the hobbyist or the commercial house.  I'm seeing now where they're doing 3D in metal.  Pricey but there's the trickle down much like milling machines and metal lathes.  Sooner or later, it will hit the hobby market. 

 

I guess philosophically in model building... wood?  metal?  resin/plastic?  Laser cut, die cut, hand cut, 3D printed.  It will depend on what you're doing and what you want to achieve. 

[JPZ66]

The sad part is that sooner or later the true craftsman will be a thing of the past....don't get me wrong, it will be appreciated for sure, but in the future, the average 'Joe' will see something he wants to have, download a pre-existing file, and print it out. Of course those models will NOT be masterpieces, but as the technology matures, I'm sure it will do much to satisfy the masses.

 

Yes, laser sintering of metal has been around awhile, but certainly on the high end of $$$ at this point in time. One of the more fascinating 3D technologies that I have seen is a process where it is like a blend of inkjet and 3D, and the finished piece is printed in full color...not just simple red, blue, etc., you can do with additive printers now, but full spectrum color, precisely where you want it...such as a figure with full flesh tones on the skin portions and such. Pretty darned amazing !

 

Joe

[kurtvd19]

3D printing and rapid prototyping is taking a toll on the traditional commercial model shops that industry uses to make prototypes for testing and for executives to touch and feel.  Two club members have recently had big down-turns in their commercial model shop business due to so many businesses now using rapid prototyping/3D printing to make samples for evaluations.  There will always be work for these guys as the 3D printers just can't make an 8 foot diameter frying pan, a 12 foot Iguana emerging from its egg or a 6 foot tall egg for a housewares show or large architectural models though a lot of the auxiliary stuff for these large models is able to be done cheaper than by the model maker now using the new technologies.

We already had a model with a lot of 3D printed parts (first photo) as well as one with almost the entire model done in 3D printing (second photo) take awards at the WI Maritime Museum's 2014 Show/Contest.  Both models are by Pat Matthews.  Like photo etch parts qualify as scratch built materials if the builder does the art/design work and a commercial printer supplies the photo etched metal the 3D pieces designed by the builder qualified the 3D parts as scratch built so both models took awards as scratch built models.

Kurt

[JPZ66]

As to the size of 3D printed parts, we've already had a full sized car body (printed right here in Las Vegas) and there are dozens of examples of large scale objects being printed. Certainly not with machines available to us "Hobbyists", but they exist.

 

Take a look at what China is working on, using laser sintered metal 3D print technology.....

 

http://3dprint.com/733/chinas-huge-3d-printers-soon-able-to-print-automobile-sized-metal-objects/

 

 

This technology will only improve with time. IMHO, anyone in the business of prototypes or commercial modeling ( not Museum quality type work ) who is not already involved with some form of 3D printing, is well behind the curve and has some descisions to make if they want to stay viable.

 

Joe

[JPZ66]

Check out a some videos for more on 3D printing....

 

 

 

 

 

.......Just sayin' ...!

 

Joe

[WackoWolf]

The first link is nice. Thank you for posting this.

[Erebus and Terror]

I use a MakerBot 2x printer at work, and I'm impressed at what it can do, though the resolution is not appropriate for anything 1:48 scale and smaller. Eventually, the technology will easily be capable of producing every part needed - and it will likely all be available for free on the internet.

 

Many will want to build their models this way and a very large and creative community of modelers will design and share the very finest and most accurate parts. It will be a fascinating time for the hobby, with 3D Digital artists competing for the first to create and share the finest models for the printing community. Many will sell their 3D digital models.

 

However, I sincerely believe that it will not detract from the work of the dedicated hand-builders who seek the challenge of creating with real wood and metal.

 

3D printing will be a boone for the plastic builders (and a nightmare for plastic kit companies). Those who like to make sawdust and metal shavings will face the same old problems and reap the same rewards.

[mtaylor]

Well said E&T.  

[kurtvd19]

As to the size of 3D printed parts, we've already had a full sized car body (printed right here in Las Vegas) and there are dozens of examples of large scale objects being printed. Certainly not with machines available to us "Hobbyists", but they exist.

 

Take a look at what China is working on, using laser sintered metal 3D print technology.....

 

http://3dprint.com/733/chinas-huge-3d-printers-soon-able-to-print-automobile-sized-metal-objects/

 

 

This technology will only improve with time. IMHO, anyone in the business of prototypes or commercial modeling ( not Museum quality type work ) who is not already involved with some form of 3D printing, is well behind the curve and has some descisions to make if they want to stay viable.

 

Joe

Joe:

The last several meetings of the Association of Professional Model Makers have had presentations and discussions as well as hands on working with 3D printing and some other forms of rapid prototyping from the POV of those destined to be out of work if they don't get with the times.  The handwriting is on the wall.

Kurt

[mtaylor]

It may not be, Janos.  It might mean that fittings could actually be proper size and shape.  Also, molds wear out, with this, the former metal parts would keep their crispness as long as the production line runs.  I suspect though, that there will be those companies that don't keep up and will founder. 

[LFrankCPA]

It's interesting that I should discover this thread now. I just spent yesterday researching 3-D printers. The Dremel people have come out with a model for about $1,000; also an outfit called XYZ Printing, has a new model which includes 3-D scanning and printing; not out just yet, but street price is about $800. That's the one I am interested in. I did an interned search on filaments (the material to print with) and found; cherry wood, generic wood, brass and bronze, apparently all for normal 3-D printers.

For just a little more you can get a printer with two nozzles. You could print windows with clear plastic glass and a wooden frame...at the same time.

There seems to be a large quantity of 'open source' software available on line for free......

I just purchased a big screen HDTV, so when my budget recovers, I'm going to get one.

Check out Amazon for reviews and purchaser documents.

Hope this helps

Larry

[Erebus and Terror]

I honestly think the wooden kit companies will be fine. Until the printers can print in wood, we'll still need to make sawdust. Revell and Tamia need to be worried, and I think they should shift their business model towards providing higher resolution digital models for people to print. But the wooden ship kit companies won't really be affected by this - just as they aren't greatly impacted by Revell and Tamia bows

[thibaultron]

I don't think 3D printing will kill the hobby, anymore than plastic models, laser cutting, or resin casting did. Manufactures simply have to adapt. As far as models that are completely 3D printed, great, more subjects will be available, just like when plastic models came out. If 3D printing gets cheap enough manufactures can start selling printed kits. Not everyone will be willing to generate their own files for complex subjects, nor will they have a 3D printer of great resolution in their homes for a long time.

As far as laser scanning, that's great, but you need and original to scan.

Let's take Model Railroading (my other hobby) as an example. I like the Santa Fe Railroad, in the steam era. My problem is that the SF built almost all of their steam locos in house, to their own designs. 95% of those locos were either never offered by manufactures, or made in now rare and very expensive brass locomotives. I therefore either have to shell out BIG bucks, or do with generic models decaled for the SF. There are some models that have the correct frame and drivers for the loco, and others that have tenders that are close, but that requires buying 2 or more locos to make one. 3D printing would be a great help. I could make my own locos (maybe), but 1 would probably take me years.

[Erebus and Terror]

Thibaultron, one of the great new things you can do is use Photogrammetry software to capture a 3d model of an existing real locomotive and then print it. A few great free apps are available for this, like 123DCatch. This might be a real solution to those hard to find models.

[JPZ66]

Ok gang... How about 3D printing with WOOD ! -Joe

 

Check this video out:

 

[WackoWolf]

Now that was cool. But now the question is when can it use the type of wood we use, that's going to be the real test. Thanks for the link.

[AntonyUK]

Hi.

Having read through this topic..

3D printing in my humble opinion will not replace wooden modeling.

There is nothing able to duplicate timber/wood. The smell,the dust, the feel and the cleaning up.

 

On the same subject.. Haw many model ship builders are willing to spend the many many hours studying a CAD program and then producing the image to use in the 3D printer.

I had a go with Solidworks. To deep for me at my age.

A service that could have cannon's and various fitting that can be scaled to a custamer size would be very helpfull. Or files that could be used to produce fittings.

 

That's enough of my ranting.. For today.

 

Regards Antony.

[JPZ66]

Well,

 

First off, I agree - as I said before - currently, and for the forseeable future...none of this will replace the master artisan and the handcrafted skills in this arena. However,

There are currently scanners on the market, such as models from Creaform, that can scan and require no post processing or clean up work...meaning you can go from scan directly to CNC or print operation.

 

Next is the fact that, on the high end of 3d print technology, there are printers that can print multiple materials in the same print run at the same time. Wood filament is fairly new, and I would imagine, will only get better in time. Remember that once upon a time, very few people had inkjet or laser printers in their home and would have to go to a copy house to have their papers or newsletters printed.... Not so long ago either... But now you can easily publish things right in your home, that look every bit as good as professional printing did just 10-15 years ago. At the rate of advancement that this segment of technology is experiencing, it won't be that long before some form of 3D printer is as common in the home as a TV.

 

Also, a few years ago, this technology and the materials that could be used was quite limited...not so today. You can 'print' various metal, wood, plastic, paper and even edible materials. Not to mention that you can scan a complex object and reverse engineer it and deconstruct it via the software. Variations and changes are a simple matter. It can be difficult to grasp the full implications. In the medical field, they have even successfully printed stem cells for tissue and organ replication.

 

Before long, I imagine, people will be able to go online, download a file of their favorite subject and simply print it out. For you plastic model builders, dont be surprised when the day comes that instead of buying your model kit in a box, you will log onto, say, the Tamiya website, and simply download your kit and print the parts directly at home !

 

The technology is astounding and will become more and more viable and cost effective in the future. My feeling is that you can poo poo it if you want to, but it is here now and will only get better and much more user friendly as we go forward.

 

Joe

[fletch944t]

Where I could see this being of use to us as modelers is to produce intricate carvings that would be attached (glued) to a flat wooden surface. For example,  carvings on the stern or trailboards.