Jump to content
JerseyCity Frankie

H.M.S.Victory by JerseyCity Frankie – Heller – plastic - 1/100 – mostly rigging and sails

Recommended Posts

More recent attempts, also REJECTED, with the new stiffening agent and utilizing the same woven fabric all the other sails are made of. I used wire to hold the wet fabric against a dowel, trying to force the smallest wrinkles I could into the fabric. The Clues were twisted in a way the real sail never could be, in order to get more wrinkles into it. These don't look THAT bad but they are not what I had hoped for. Like those above made of tissue, the woven cloth version forms into wrinkles IT wants to fall into, not the wrinkles I want it to fall into.

post-3035-0-28692100-1422228772_thumb.jpg

Edited by JerseyCity Frankie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you won't lose interest, here is another shot of the overall model  again. Its a GREAT kit and I saw it for sale recently online. I could never have produced these nice ( and presumably accurate) hull lines. The moulded on detail is comprehensive although some find some of the textures to be over the top. For instance there is wood grain moulded in and this is out of scale. But on the other hand the acrylic artist paint I use is fairly thick compared to hobby enamels, so the detail gets blunted.

post-3035-0-48596600-1422409092_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I decided to see how it would go if I glued each bit of the sail that would be moved by a line in place where it would wind up withe the lines drawn up tight.  This technique is dry, there is no stiffening agent and the material is not being augmented by any liquid treatment. So I bent the side of the sail where the Reefline originates and glued that portion of the sail to the head of the sail where the lead block is located on the yard. I moved on this way across the sail and I am starting to think this will be the solution.

post-3035-0-63614100-1422409496_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-14477500-1422409607_thumb.jpg

Edited by JerseyCity Frankie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still the problem of the lack of tiny wrinkles. As you can see I am using blue tape to hold the fabric in position till the glue is dry, and I try to scrunch as many wrinkles into the fabric as I can and trap it under the tape. The sailcloth is dry, I have not used the stiffening agent here.

post-3035-0-40521200-1422409670_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-82569400-1422409824_thumb.jpg

Edited by JerseyCity Frankie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pleased with the results. The profile, the shape of the entire bundle of sail that results is very much like the shape in the photos and drawings of actual Clewed up sails and this makes me happy. The above techniques got me plenty of wrinkles, but the overall shape was wrong. No boltropes glued on yet, I didn't want anything impeding any wrinkles from forming but I will put bolropes on where they are visible. I don't know if I should paint the stiffening agent on now or not. Soon I can start lacing attaching these to the yards and then onto the model. Its good to feel that I am so close to finishing this kit after so many years.

post-3035-0-34005700-1422504143_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-07889000-1422504292_thumb.jpg

Edited by JerseyCity Frankie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking around Model Ship World I see there is a LOT of confusion about sails. Fortunately there is a lot of source material available but its a daunting amount to get a firm grasp of. I think this is why people elect not to include sails on their models since If you don't understand the rigging you are apt to make blunders on the model when you depict lines in attitudes they would never be found in on a working ship. We see this all the time.

Here and now, lets just focus on furling a square sail. here is a photo of the brig Niagara with her lowers visible in two states, Clewed up and Harbor Furled. The sail on the Fore has had its Sheets and Tacks cast off and the Clews have been taken up on. This draws the lower corners of the sail ( the Clews) up to inner part of the yard BEHIND the bulk of the otherwise slack sailcloth. The Buntlines and Leechlines have also been taken up on and they have drawn the points on the sail from which they originate up to the yard IN FRONT of the otherwise slack sailcloth. This sail is NOT FURLED, it is in a state of being CLEWED UP, also known as HANGING IN ITS GEAR. Nobody had to go aloft to achieve this, this has all been effected by handling the lines from the deck.

In stark contrast, the sail on the Main HAS BEEN FURLED. Prior to this photo, the Main had also been Clewed Up just like the Fore. But then the crew laid aloft and put in the furl. The crew laid out on the yard and physically pulled the hanging sailcloth up to and ON TOP OF the yard, trying to FLAKE the fabric into long Port and Starboard folds, each fold not much wider than the thickness of the Yard. The topmost flake, or the topmost fold, is made a bit wider and it is used to hide all the other folds as neatly and as free of any wrinkles as possible. This cuts on windage, sheds water and looks ship shape. 

Notice that NONE of the furled sail hangs beneath the yard, it is all piled on top of the yard. There is no way to furl a sail neatly AND have it wind up UNDER the yard.

Also note the two very obvious triangular shapes, these are the Clews of the sail. Note that they are uppermost and do not emerge from beneath the flakes of the bulk of the sail, they are uppermost and hang down over the front of all the rest of the sail. I assume this is so that when the sail is set, the Clews will be 'first out" of that bundle of material and less likely to foul while the sail is being set.

 

post-3035-0-38914800-1422628280_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I found this excellent video showing the process of putting in a Harbor Furl. I could not find a video of a Course being furled, this is a Topsail but it illustrates all the principles involved very well.


The crew lays aloft and out onto the yard and the first activity they engage in is casting off the gaskets. These are the lengths of line that will go on last to tie the furl down to the yard. They live on the spar and when not in use are gasket Coiled and can often be seen as tiny bundles of line hanging in a row across the head of a set sail.


Then in unison the crew reach down as far as they can and grab the first handful of sail and "bust" it up on top of the yard, these are the folds of the accordion of neat folds they are making and this process is repeated until all of the hanging sailcloth is on top of the yard. Their goal is to make these folds as neat as possible in order to make the smallest and most wrinkle free package as possible.


The last fold is considered the "skin" that will cover everything, ideally as tight as a drum. 


What is particularly of interest are the Clews of the sail and how they are treated by the crew. Note how careful the crew are to arrange the Clews.


Also not how near the end, the guy at the yardarm is stuffing loos fold under the "skin".


Finally theGaskets, which have been hanging down since they were cast off, are used to tie the neatly furled sail to the top of the yard, to keep it in place. Is there a storm coming? Put on a LOT of extra gaskets.


Now the sail is FURLED and the crew can return to the deck. The sail can't be set again until the gaskets are cast of by someone aloft, but that is all that is required short of overhauling the buntlines and Leachlines. Overhauling means pulling sufficient line back through the lead blocks on the yard to insure the canvas can pop out of the furl with as little friction of the line running through the blocks as possible.


 


 

post-3035-0-08260100-1422630461_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I laced the two Topsails onto the Topsail Yards. I drilled the holes for the Robands then sewed one turn of brown thread through each hole and around the yard, no hitching or daisy chaining. This best represents actual practice. I am certain if I had not drilled the holes first I would have had a lot of "tear out" working so close to the edge of the fabric. Even with the boltropes reenforcing the edge of the sail. 

I used brown thread rather than black so the Robands are visible against the darker color of the yard but unobtrusive. Why do so many people make the Robands bright white? I can't imagine anything on a ship being perfectly white, certainly not on a wooden sailing ship.

Speaking of the Boltropes, I am a little surprised so many people go to the trouble of actually SEWING them onto the edge of the sail fabric rather than simply gluing them onto the edge of the material, as I have done. I know from having roped canvas myself that the stitches pierce the sailcloth and come up between the score of the three stranded Bolt Rope, then the sailtwine follows the score back down to the canvas for the next stitch, Mutch the same way the Worming on a Wormed and parceled line remains at all times down in the score, Its never visible outside of the score of the rope and would be absolutely invisible on a model.

I can't say I universally  condemn the practice of physically sewing sails for models since as I said before, the organic look you get looks unmistakably like a woven natural fiber article and it makes a very nice contrast to the materials the rest of the model is made of.  There are some examples you can see right here on Model Ship World where the drawbacks of the scale issue are outweighed by the overall great look of the texture you get from sewing, even if out of scale.  There is a recent Scottish Maid I was looking at that has really nice looking hand stitched sails.  I would hate to have anyone take my strong opinions about how 'it should be done" as a condemnation of how THEY do things. I will say there are some historical aspects about the disposition of things on the ship that are "true" and I will debate you on those, but as to the materials we use and how we manipulate them, its more about personal expression and thus a mater of taste. But I do wish people would stop sewing on the Boltropes!

 

post-3035-0-34796000-1422844030_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-11717600-1422844040_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-55284700-1422844051_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is some very fine work there Frankie.

 

'Like it' ,like it a lot.

 

How did you get the down stripes on the cloth, I am going to use cloth also for my sails.

 

I do not think you have to worry to much on your furled sails, they look real to me, as if they had been done by those 1/100 men :).

 

Frank :piratebo5:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Frank/Foxy. Thanks for the compliment. The vertical lines are drawn on with a white ink pen. Its hard t find a white ink pen but they make them. Its possible to use colored pencil and even regular lead pencil too- the seams on the actual sails look different in different lighting conditions, sometimes they appear lighter than the surrounding fabric, sometimes darker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More Roband shots, these are the Clewed Up Course sails being bent onto the lower yards. I think I could have made the Boltropes a hair thicker, if I had the correct diameter line in stock. The closest I had in color and texture was Gutermann CA02776/520. Its a well known oft-repeated maxim that you should scale down rather than up when doing the rigging and presented with a choice of thicknesses that are not exactly perfect for the job. And you do see out of scale Boltropes on models.

post-3035-0-93293300-1422977719_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-60521000-1422977731_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lot of great sail wrinkle detail in this shot of Hermione. I do want to ask people's opinion about the way the sails are bent on. I had always thought the head of a square sail and its boltrope should be attached to the FRONT or the TOP of the yard, not hanging from the bottom  of the yard as depicted here. Thoughts?

post-3035-0-94740300-1423067483_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suppose it would depend on if there was a jack stay to bend the sail to or not.  If there is the sail would hang before the yard, if not the sail would hang under the yard; there being nothing to hold it up in front.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great work on the sails. I have decided to put full sails on the Flying Fish I'm working on. Can you be more specific on the cloth and where you go it? Also where you got the pen and stiffener fluid..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Steve. The fabric I use for the sails is white cotton bed sheet material. Its literally just an old sheet I am using its neither thick or thin material, its just plain ordinary stuff. It may even be a cotton polly blend for all I know. I don't think the thickness or thinness counts for much either way so long as you aren't using burlap.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=golden+gac+400+fabric+stiffener&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8  .

is the fabric stiffener. I got mine at an art supply store that stocks a lot of painting mediums.

http://www.google.com/search?q=uni-ball+signo+UM-153&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=shop&sa=X&ei=C-75VN2zM9CBygSk24L4CA&ved=0CAgQ_AU  

. is the pen I used, I got my pen at a high end stationary store.

Hope this helps and thanks for reading my build log! Good luck with your sails. 

Putting sails on a ship model is often derided here on MSW but I think its really a question of comprehension and effort, not anything inherently wrong with sails on models. Its difficult to do and requires a greater understanding of the rigging, thats all.

Edited by JerseyCity Frankie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the information. I also agree that not having sails on a sailing ship is like a car with no tires. I understand the reason many modelers don't have them as it does cover up some work butt when done well can add to the model. They have to look right like us said take the time on them as you did on the rest of the ship. The model will just have to be look at harder to appreciate the detail that is behind the salis. My clipper Flying Fish will have full sails with stunsail after all it is a clipper and they are know for there speed, and it comes from the sails after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bending on some sail, finally. Running the Jeer tackle falls and imagining what it would have been like back in the day to haul the yards aloft after they were struck on deck. Victory's main yard is just short of 100 feet long and would have presented quite a challenge even if it was just a naked spar with no canvas. THen all that line on deck when you have finally belayed to the bits, a HUGE coil for each fall. Likely struck down to the cable tier but still, a huge task just managing.

I'm so pleased with the way this model is coming together. If you have read the whole build log you will see that this model was a LONG time building, and sat neglected for years at a time.

The addition of the sails dramatically alters the ships appearance. People may be becoming tired of the way I ceaselessly beat the "add sails to your model" drum, but I see the way this project is turning out and the results are only reconfirming my belief that all sailing ship models should have sails on them.

Further I will also say that all square yards with sails bent to them should be braced around on one side or the other, having them square to the keel with sails bent on just looks stiff and unnatural.

Feel free to disagree though, the hobby in general and MSW in particular would be less fun if everyone agreed on everything all the time.

post-3035-0-13658000-1431608124_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-66884600-1431608135_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-13053700-1431608149_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More rigging and sails going on. I have the headsails the lowers and the topsails complete now with most of their running rigging. In the photos I have not yet attached the braces so I have braced using a bit of thread to show the disposition I am going for.

Bracing the yards as far over as can be managed is the only way I ever want to depict a model. The standard "square to the keel" method used on 99% of models, in my  opinion, is too static formal and stiff. Certainly in port ships were squared up but at sea this would very nearly NEVER happen. At sea ships were trying to GET SOMEWHERE and this usually meant tacking or running to one degree or another. Even on a beam reach the yards would get braced a little.

Another positive aspect of braced yards-on a model with sails- is it shows two different visual effects, viewing the model from one side or the other gives you a visual alternative. On the windward side you see the canvas filling the space above the deck in a way that demonstrates what a sailing ship is all about. On the Weather side you see all the rigging and get a sense of what it is all for, what it is doing. In each case all that space above deck is demonstrated as being a dynamic and exciting world of line and canvas that allows a ship to move across the water.

A side benefit is that the case for a model with yards braced hard over will be narrower by several inches than a case built for a square yard model.

post-3035-0-31494300-1438606901_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-04633200-1438606923_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-89752300-1438606935_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-42693400-1438606945_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm coming up against some obstacles in my documentation as I proceed. No single source is enough for all the rigging information and in some cases there really isnt any source I can put my finger on. I'm using Longridge wich is great but he never intended to put sails on his Victory and his book reflects this. HMS Victory by McGowan takes the football farther down the field but its still short of comprehensive rigging coverage. The Anatomy of the Ship Victory by McKay is a joke, serving as an example of how NOT to present rigging. (Dear Anatomy of the Ship series: If you have a 9.5" X10" page why make the rigging drawing only 6" high?!)  Lees is still the best source. But as an example a lot of rigging is these books is illustrated and described in the text as it is found on the yard or in the top but where it bellays and what sort of tackle is on the hauling end is rarely discussed. 

Still, I love books and having multiple volumes open and in use as I cross reference with a pair of tweezers in one hand and a spool of thread in the other is an agreeable model building sensation. But I am surprised nobody has yet produced a better H.M.S. Victory rigging book after all these years and all these models. Surely it would be a best seller.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The kit Victory comes with three one piece injection moulded boats and provides brackets for the three of them on the skids over the hatch. It also provides for davits on the mizzen shrouds but no boats for them.

Years ago, I forget when, I decided to make some boats for these davits. I made them out of card stock. In fact I redid the interior details of the thre plastic boats and my two new ones with cut and painted paper and cardstock gratings thwarts and coamings. The hulls of the two new ones were built clinker fashion over carved wooden forms and I ALWAYS recommend this method, the results are ALWAYS better then I expected. Lots of guys plank their own boats in wood but this never makes any sense to me as the wood is always too thick. Paper or cardstock is supper easy to work with and when all the planks are laid up, the hulls are strong and in scale. Stronger than you would think too, I would say. I urge everyone to try planking a paper boat at some point I promise you you will find it faster and with better results than you would imagine.

I built and detailed these boats a LONG time ago then attached them to a plaque and they sat in my bookshelf, looking sharp but gathering dust, for a very long time. Now they are almost old enough to vote and you can see the ghosts they left on the plaque in the second photo.

post-3035-0-68311600-1441724070_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-96084400-1441724083_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Getting closer to completion. I am running the braces but not making them off yet, I want the finished model to be braced up as sharp as possible but for now I still need to get my fingers in there to run other lines yet to be rigged, so the yards are a bit floppy yet. And you can see there are a LOT of lines left dangling off the model not yet made off to a pin.

As I move along I am constantly being humbled as I have to re-learn a lot of how the rigging works, stuff I would have said I already knew well.

For instance the spanker sheet. I would have told you there is a single line used to control the boom. And there sort-of is. But there are also two other lines, Guy Pendants, on the clew of the sail itself that run through a sheave in the boom and behave a LOT like sheets. I never suspected these lines existed.

post-3035-0-48812100-1445186617_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-02716000-1445186628_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-49746000-1445186637_thumb.jpg

post-3035-0-24715200-1445186651_thumb.jpg

Edited by JerseyCity Frankie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

About us

Modelshipworld - Advancing Ship Modeling through Research

SSL Secured

Your security is important for us so this Website is SSL-Secured

NRG Mailing Address

Nautical Research Guild
237 South Lincoln Street
Westmont IL, 60559-1917

About the NRG

If you enjoy building ship models that are historically accurate as well as beautiful, then The Nautical Research Guild (NRG) is just right for you.

The Guild is a non-profit educational organization whose mission is to “Advance Ship Modeling Through Research”. We provide support to our members in their efforts to raise the quality of their model ships.

The Nautical Research Guild has published our world-renowned quarterly magazine, The Nautical Research Journal, since 1955. The pages of the Journal are full of articles by accomplished ship modelers who show you how they create those exquisite details on their models, and by maritime historians who show you the correct details to build. The Journal is available in both print and digital editions. Go to the NRG web site (www.thenrg.org) to download a complimentary digital copy of the Journal. The NRG also publishes plan sets, books and compilations of back issues of the Journal and the former Ships in Scale and Model Ship Builder magazines.

Our Emblem

Modelshipworld - Advancing Ship Modeling through Research
×
×
  • Create New...