Gluing Techniques and Associated Information

[Bob Cleek]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 2:21 AM, wefalck said:

Still looking for the real 'super-glue', something that you can apply at your leisure, position the parts at your leisure, and then 'tell' the stuff to cure now. The UV-curing acrylics that dentists use and that have appeared in DIY stores some years ago, go into that direction, but only work, when the UV-light can get to the stuff.

In search of such a unicorn, I have a mind one of these days to experiment with Titebond and heat. I have an Aeropicola plank bender and another small (and cheap) soldering iron sort of tool with a round, flat disk on the end that was originally made to heat vinyl repair material (colored goop in a jar) for automobile seats. The hypothesis is that heat, but not so much as to scorch the wood, applied to the unglued side of thin pieces, at least, such as planks, using one of these tools might accelerate the drying of the Titebond sufficiently to permit the Titebond to "tack" the planks to the frames without the usual drying time of Titebond.

 

I've heard of people heating epoxy laminations to speed curing. I expect that would work, because head does affect the cure rate of epoxy. On the other hand, with Titebond, it would be a process of "cooking off" the moisture in the glue.

 

Has anybody ever tried this?

[vossiewulf]

1 hour ago, Dr PS said:

Suppose wood glue dries in a somewhat smeared fashion, let’s say, on strakes.  If scraped and sanded, will stain not cover uniformly?

Unless you scrape deep enough to remove everything the glue penetrated, then yes you are likely to have uneven staining results.

[vossiewulf]

For all those who use yellow glue, I suggest you try Luthier Mercantile International's glue. It is excellent wood glue, but has an additional feature needed by instrument makers who can't afford a single spot of glue anywhere: it contains a fluorescent dye that reacts to a UV light. 

 

So all you need to do is buy a small black light, and shine it over surfaces and any glue spots will be immediately visible, and in a case like Dr. PS has there'd be no guessing, you could see exactly whether you have glue present or not.

[mtaylor]

On 4/25/2019 at 7:00 PM, Dr PS said:

Suppose wood glue dries in a somewhat smeared fashion, let’s say, on strakes.  If scraped and sanded, will stain not cover uniformly?

As you work, at each joint use a damp cloth to wipe up the smears and overflows.  It's easier to get it off before it dries than after it does.

[Dr Y]

Am a beginner on second ship and my first plank on bulkhead build.  Any advice on the technique of keeping the planks tight on application would be appreciated.  Considering rubber bands, clamps, and/or pins.  If clamps or pins what types are recommended?

[wefalck]

On 4/26/2019 at 5:50 AM, Bob Cleek said:

In search of such a unicorn, I have a mind one of these days to experiment with Titebond and heat. I have an Aeropicola plank bender and another small (and cheap) soldering iron sort of tool with a round, flat disk on the end that was originally made to heat vinyl repair material (colored goop in a jar) for automobile seats. The hypothesis is that heat, but not so much as to scorch the wood, applied to the unglued side of thin pieces, at least, such as planks, using one of these tools might accelerate the drying of the Titebond sufficiently to permit the Titebond to "tack" the planks to the frames without the usual drying time of Titebond.

 

I've heard of people heating epoxy laminations to speed curing. I expect that would work, because head does affect the cure rate of epoxy. On the other hand, with Titebond, it would be a process of "cooking off" the moisture in the glue.

 

Has anybody ever tried this?

@Bob, didn't notice this comment until just now: in fact, doing this with PVA, which I believe 'Titebond' is, seems to be fairly common in the German modellers community. You can use any temperature-regulated soldering iron for this together with a chisel-shaped bit in it, that allows you to press the plank in place. As I am currently not building in wood, I have never used the technique myself.

 

@Dr Y, just search around the forum a bit; people use home-made clamps, push-pins, rubber bands, etc. depending on the location and accessibility.

[Bob Cleek]

Welfalk, thanks for the information! That's good to know.

[What was I thinking!]

First--and probably the only--I'm building 1799 Enterprise.  Right now I am in year eight and finishing up the copper plating (not part of the kick).  I'll probably regret this, but I am using Gorilla Superglue (wood to copper).  Anyone else using "superglue"?  So far I file the excess from my fingertips--I feel like a frigging safe cracker with no fingerprints to speak of.

[mtaylor]

I don't copper (yet, anyway) but from what I've seen, superglue is among the glues used for this.  However, there are many who say the glue doesn't last.

[wefalck]

There can be problems with copper-ions inhibiting the polymerisation of cyano-acrylates or other reactive glues. Glues that work on the basis of an evaporating solvent, contact cements, might be a better option, provided that the 'wood' side is permeable enough. Careful degreasing and a light rubbing with steel-wool to remove any oxides on the copper is a must.

[toms10]

On 3/7/2019 at 9:54 PM, Dan03 said:

I purchased one of these glue bottles from Lee Valley Tools for under 10 bucks and it works great. The tip is customizable. Mine will lay a consistent bead of Titebond along the edge of a plank without too much fuss or mess. Plus the glue is aways sealed away and a simple squeeze brings it up the tube. No need to invert and shake the glue to the top to dispense.  The middle size is perfect for modelling.

 

These are pretty good.  I purchased the "baby" on amazon for a few bucks.

Tom

[lampare]

I have used a lump of polymer clay to hold glue in, just take a square of clay and make a hole in it and fill with glue, when glue dries it pops right out. It’s what I use.

[Dr PR]

Here are some thoughts on glues:

 

I'm a bit old fashioned - I used Testors "wood glue" for balsa projects when I was a kid. It contained acetone and "smelled like glue." Today I use Duco Cement for wood - it also smells like glue. What I like about it is that it cures in less than a minute when used in small amounts. Usually I can hold parts together for about 20 seconds and they are fastened. But you should allow it to cure for several hours or overnight to get a full bond. It does release acetone so you should use it in a ventilated area, but the amount released is small and I rarely notice it.

 

For bonding wood planking on hulls the best thing I have found is epoxy paints. These are very thin two part epoxy. Airplane modelers use it to cover wooden engine mounts to prevent fuel from soaking into the wood. After the planking is in place (using some other adhesive for a temporary bond to the frames) just paint the inside surface of the hull with the epoxy paint. It will soak into the wood and frames, filling any gaps. I have wooden planked hulls 30 years old and there are no visible cracks between the planks.

 

I like two part epoxies and there are many variations with different cure times. I especially like epoxy putties - some can even be mixed and used under water! When they harden they can be carved and machined like plastics, and they are a great gap filler. Of course the shortcoming is that they must be mixed carefully in the correct proportions (or they will never harden) and you have to mix them just before use.

 

I avoid "super glue" or cyanoacrylate like the plague! I have never had good results, and the stuff usually hardens to a solid before I use it. Back in the '70s the automobile industry started using it to glue rear view mirrors onto the inside if windshields. I had the mirror fall off in a new Camaro. It was reattached with cyanoacrylate several times, and fell off every time. I finally mixed up some epoxy and glued it on myself. That bond lasted for at least 13 years until I sold the car. I later learned why the cyanoacrylate failed on the windshield - dashboard temperatures reached about 90C on very hot days. Cyanoacrylate melts below 100C (boiling temperature of water at atmospheric pressure). We used it to glue together machined parts in specialized microscopes. When we needed to disassemble them we wrapped a heating blanket around the parts and they came apart when the glue melted.

 

CAUTION: cyanoacrylate releases heat (exothermic) as it cures. The greater the amount of glue the hotter it gets. I learned this the hard way many years ago. I used some super glue to glue the frayed ends of pull strings on a sleeping bag, letting it soak into the 1/8 inch diameter cords. Shortly afterwards the cords became very hot and started smoking! I dipped the cords into cold water to prevent a fire.

 

Contrary to what some have said on this forum, cyanoacrylate was not invented to treat wounds in Vietnam! I first saw this stuff in the 1950s, long before Vietnam. But the original stuff was deemed to be too hazardous for the general public because it glued fingers together permanently! So the commercial brands are "watered down" (not actually with water, of course) to make it easier to get glued fingers apart. As others have said there are numerous formulations on the market with numerous variations in properties, so no general statement really applies to all.

 

Ordinary while glue (PVA, polyvinyl acetate, wood glue, Elmers glue, school glue, etc.) is useful with any porous material (wood, cloth, paper, etc.). It is especially useful for bonding knots and ends of ropes and threads. It dries clear and washes off with water. You can soak the material in water to release the bond.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Dr PR

[AndyXO]

Can anyone tell me what is the ratio of water to PVA  for a "watered down PVA" solution to be used in Planking?  Thanks?

[Roger Pellett]

Glue dispenser-  I found that a cheap squeeze bottle likethey used to use for ketchup and mustard at restaurants works great.  Is the tip gets plugged with dried glue it’s easy to unscrew the cap and pull the plug out with needle nosed pliers.

 

Roger

[Jaager]

Andy,

When I get OCD, I prime end grain with 50:50 PVA:water.  I blot any excess.  It then is allowed at least 24 hrs to polymerize.  It is for instances of end grain to end grain bonds.  This is never a strong bond, but pre filling the open spaces with plastic could help.

For planking - no dilution is needed or wanted.  Use quality PVA.  Titebond II has worked well for me.  Use a damp rag or paper towel to remove any squeeze-out.  I cannot think of any wood to wood bonding situation where dilution of PVA would have any advantage.  I imagine only bad results from doing it.

For natural fiber rigging that comes off the ropewalk,  bookbinders neutral pH PVA diluted 50:50 is a treatment for the line while hanging under weights.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Jaager

[AndyXO]

Thanks much for your thoughts on this.

 

Andy

[acaron41120]

For really tight spots to get into, I use a syringe. I ordered some when I had to give my little daschund "Mitsy" insulin shots and have quite a few left over since she passed. I don't use the needles, just the syringe and that gets the tip into some really tight, hard to reach areas.

[AndyXO]

Dear Acaron 41120

 

Thank you very much for that idea. I think it might be very helpful as I proceed.  While I don't have  syringes, I do have several plastic squeeze bottles with small tip openings that might also  work.

 

Andy 

[reklein]

I think any end grain joint with any glue should be pre glued so that the glue can penetrate, then a second application to finish the joint. I use a surplus computer fan on my bench to one side to blow fumes away from me when using CA. I rarely apply thin CA directly from the bottle but dip an applicator on a little puddle of glue. DO NOT keep the little puddle under your nose on the bench. I always tap the glue bottle after using to settle any glue left in the nozzle down to the neck. Helps prevent plugs. I use accelerator a lot but I don't use the sprayer. I keep the sprayer loose in the bottle and use the tube as an applicator for just a drop on the joint. I have blocks of wood with holes drilled to accommodate the glue and accelerator bottles from tipping over.

[AndyXO]

Thanks much for your help on this and how to use CA glue  which I will be using on my second planking .