PMG

Hi Christian,

Your Diana is of an exceptionnal quality. The open bulwalk is beautiful.

I wish you a lot of success in the construction of your home. But,... protect your fingers!!!

Pierre

Still busy sizing the lowerdeck gunports. A very boring job with a needle file.

And my wife does'nt like at all the noise it makes. So I have to choose very carefully the time when I do it...

I am now looking for some piece of wood to make a 15x17 mm plug calliper.

Pierre

This is a picture of the paint I used on my HMS SERAPIS.

It's true. The Aeropiccola kit is a great one. High quality wood  etc.

Apparently, mine must be an earlier version without double planking, but it does'nt matter.

If you except some "historical discrepancies" - but we can live with - it's a great model.

Some details about painting.

I already told that the "Nelson checker" painting scheme was more than probably not correct. However I followed it.

And it's more difficult than just following the curves of the wales.

At the time I did it, I think that the very good Admiralty paints of Caldercraft were not existing.

Finally, to be closer to the epoque colours I decided to use artist oil paints with true pigments as available in the time.

It gives a good result. Not always easy to apply (you have to dilute it a little bit, but not too much). The black is nice.

For the yellow, I used the pure yellow occre with a small addition of white. Finally, it appears a little bit too clear. It's a question of point of view.

The main problem with these paints is the time of drying. It's often better to wait 2 or 3 weeks to have it perfectly dry and pass the varnish.

Absolutely not recommended for Mobbsie!

Pierre

Congratulations, Mobbsie.

You passed through the forest! Your work is really impressing.

Pierre

Thank you, Mobbsie, for your encouragement and good advises.

I already tought I was the slowiest monkey of the slow monkeys, but apparently not enough...

Pierre

Finally back in my "northern home" and to my Agamemnon.

I decided to continue the (fastidious) work of cutting precisely the gunports.

But I have been a little bit too conservative when drilling the holes, and so, there is still a lot of wood to remove with a file.

I found an old set of small tools I used for my Serapis, and rapidly putted the little saw you see on the picture in operation.

But it appeared not to be a good idea...

At certain places, after sanding, the first planking can be rather thin and often not supported by a frame. And, you can see on the next picture that I damaged the planking.

Repair is already done, but I think I will continue with a file...

Pierre

Beautiful as usual....

If you continue like that she will sail before the end of the year!

Pierre

Very impressive start, Mobbsie.

And thank you for the very didactical pictures.

Pierre

Very nice job (as usual...).

You are very lucky to see Spitfires and Hurricanes flying above your head. And I understand that when you spend time to look to them you are not working at your Aggie...

Pierre

Hello Mobbsie,

Take care of you and come back as soon as possible fully operational!

Pierre

Hello Mobbsie,

When you take pictures, please, make some details of your gunports.

You know I am very interested by the question.....

Thanks

Pierre

OK Chris,

I understand now. It's the flag after capture by J. P. Jones.

I wondered about a british (and of course inexistant) flag.  Thank you for the info.

Pierre

Thank you Rob for your nice photographies and clear and useful explanations.

For me you are really a reference in the building of the Agamemnon.

I am waiting the following steps.

Pierre

Thank you Anja.

It will be a working stay, because we have to put the house in "summer conditions".

It means clear water in the pool, garden freshly cutted and working spraying system etc etc.

For the moment, the sun shines, the sky is blue but it is cold and windy.

Pierre

Hello Chris,

I was not aware about a Serapis flag. Can you give me more explanation?

Thank you.

Pierre

Fantastic progress, as usual, Mobbsie.

Greetings

Pierre

Thank you Martin,

But I am still online, and I have a good collection of pictures with me.

So, if we have to discuss a point, no problem, I need just to resize the picture.

Of course, there is no progress more to my build...

Pierre

I am now back in France for a couple of weeks, hoping the weather will finally be better.

But I have many things to do here, so I didn't take very much to do for my Agamemnon. If I have time, I shall try to make some oars for the boats, and eventually to continue carving the captain for my crew.

But, I continue to be on the forum.

Pierre

Let's now compare to the "french" version according to wikipedia.

24 x 24pdrs    58512 kgs

22 x 18pdrs    48068 kgs

  6  x others (I assume 6pdrs)  5184 kgs

Total:   111.764    It's  very much. Around 50% more than the original design value.

It's seems to me unlikely to have these heavy guns installed on a 5th rate.

They should eventually be carronades.

As a comparison we can considered the experimental armament installed on the "Rainbow"  (also a 44, 5th rate, same class) in 1782.(in 1782, Serapis was already lost)

All carronades: 20 x 68 pdrs

                         20 x 42 pdrs

                           4 x 32 pdrs

A very impressive fire power (but not at long distance) weighing only 58500kgs. This seems more in line with sailing and fighting qualities.

I point also the fact that the Aeroppicola kit is supplied with a full set of british flags. I conclude that the designers of the kit were never intended to produce a "french" version of the ship, and I am not sure that precise records of such a version are existing.

We have so a broad choice of possible versions to build.... And a lot of fun!

My preferred (but it's too late for me to change) should be 20 x 18 pdrs + 22 x 12 pdrs + 2 x 6 pdrs + 10 x 32 pdrs carronades = in total 54 guns.

Pierre

Hello Steve,

I made a little bit of research and here is the result of.

I looked in Brian Lavery's book and also in a site called "histoire-de-fregates.com/chroniques.carronades" (this article is written in english).

Weights:

32 pdrs gun   56 cwt   2845 kgs

24 pdrs gun   48 cwt   2438 kgs

18 pdrs gun   43 cwt   2184 kgs

12 pdrs gun   30 cwt   1524 kgs

 9 pdrs  gun   24 cwt   1219 kgs

 6 pdrs  gun   17 cwt    864 kgs

18 pdrs carronade   10 cwt   508 kgs

32 pdrs carronade    17 cwt  864 kgs

42 pdrs carronade     assumed 1200 kgs

68 pdrs carronade     assumed  1500 kgs

If we look to the design armament of the HMS Serapis (class Roebuck), we have:

20 x 18 pdrs      43680 kgs

22 x  9 pdrs       26818 kgs

  2 x  6 pdrs         1728 kgs

Total                72226 kgs

According to a new rule, it seems that during the construction time of Serapis the upper deck guns have been changed from 9 pdrs to 12 pdrs.

So, it becomes:

20 x 18 pdrs      43680 kgs

22 x 12 pdrs       33528 kgs

  2 x  6 pdrs         1728 kgs

Total                78936 kgs

Then, in July 1779, a new regulation was issued, fitting the 5th rate ships (44 guns) with 10 carronades.

2 x 18 pdrs carronades on the forecastle: 1016 kgs

8 x 18 pdrs carronades on the quarterdeck: 4064 kgs

In total, we arrive to 84016 kgs and... 54 guns as mentionned in the litterature and as shown on the kit.

It's already a famous weight but it is still realistic.

It's probably in such a configuration that the battle with the Bonhomme Richard occured.

I have to stop now, I continue later in another post.

Pierre

Hello Steve,

I shall try to make the calculation of the weight of the guns in both cases.

Pierre

I agree with Chris. We have to consider the kit as generic.

But Steve is right too. May be that the kit designers tried to represent the Serapis under french flag. And, as she had been severely damaged, it is not improbable that she received major changes (such as a closed bulwalk) during refitting.

Under british flag I don't think that she received any changes. She was launched in March and lost in September.

On another way, the number and size of guns given by wikipedia for the french period seems to me very irrealistic.

One of the major problems of these 44 guns ships (class Roebuck) was that they were very low on the water, and, except in fair weather, it happened often that they could'nt even use their lower deck guns. With such an overweight like suggested by wikipedia I think that sailing and fighting qualities of the ship were very very poor.

Thank you for the interesting discussion.

Pierre

Hello Steve,

HMS Serapis is really an interesting ship.

There is a fact that there is not very much information available as the ship was lost in her first trip.

I know that she was experimental concerning the coppering. A large number of heavy guns on the quarterdeck seems to me unlikely, they must probably be carronades (relatively new at the time) and , may be, four 6pdrs..

Closed bulwalk and Nelson's checker seems very improbable too. When looking carefully to the drawings I got really the impression that the italian designer of the kit took most of his inspiration with the Victory of N. Longbridge.

OK for the davits, may be, but the absence of launch, pinnace or more significant boat than the two small supplied yawls seems strange to me.

If I could redo it, I surely should cut the closed quarter bulwalk and make an open version a little bit like what did Barbossa for his HMS Diana.

It should be interesting to have the possibility of having a look on the original drawings at the NMM, but I don't know how to do that.

Anyway, its a fine kit....

Pierre

I summarise, once for ever, the historical discrepancies I found in the Aeropiccola kit:

- closed quarterdeck bulwalk (not applied on that type of ship in 1779)

- Nelson checker as hull painting scheme. Appeared only around 1800.

- steering wheel located after the mizzen mast (should be in front of)

- boats on davits (appeared also only around 1800)

- ten 9pdrs guns on the quarterdeck. Surely too heavy. May be carronades, but less than 10. And missing 6 pdrs as chase guns on the forecastle.

- masting and rigging copying the N. Longbridge' Victory drawings. By example, the iron rings reinforcing the masts should be replaced by ropes. Iron was only used much later.

- missing galley and chimney.

- closed forecastle. It is unlikely that the there was a bulkhead in front of the galley.

- coppering. HMS Serapis was known to be the first ship of that size leaving the shipyard coppered.

However, the Serapis kit remains a nice piece, and if you are not too far in your build you can more or less easily correct the most obvious mistakes.

Despitely, I discovered most of them a little bit late and I have to live with an "hybrid" ship.

(by example, I already painted the Nelson's checker - not easy to do- and I am not intended to change)

Pierre