Steve20

Below are pics of the most forward port and starboard guns on the middle deck of Victory and both have two tackle rings on each cheek. I have pics of around 20 other Victory guns, and all have one pair of tackle rings only. The gun carriages are clearly reproductions and whether these two guns are supposed to be in this location I do not know. However, their bow position could be the reason for the extra tackle rings as they would permit attachment of another pair of outhaul tackles to facilitate a better traverse in this forward position. Another possible reason for extra tackle rings on the bow gun carriages is that it may enable better control of gun repositioning between the 1st and 2nd gunports (note the foremost gunports are empty). I assume this would be necessary as there’s probably not enough room to properly work both gunports simultaneously. It may be, therefore, that when manoeuvring guns on a heaving deck the crew need to secure them to the new gunport location before loosening from the old. This could be by pulling the gun back on the inhaul whilst maintaining reasonable tension on the two (existing) outhaul tackles attached to tackle ring pair 1. Then whilst making a necessary small traverse (with handspikes, maybe) run two more outhaul tackles from the new gunport location to tackle rings pair 2 to take up the strain. Existing outhall tackles could then be released from tackle ring pair 1 and the gun pulled into the new position by the outhaul tackles attached to tackle ring pair 2. All this is supposition, of course, and I’m ready to be told I’m completely wrong. Middle deck. Starboard bow gun (see curve of deck, bottom left). This has two tackle rings each side. Middle deck. Port bow gun. This also has two tackle rings each side. Middle deck. Starboard gun No. 3 (gunport No. 4). This has one tackle ring each side. Middle deck. Port gun No. 2 (gunport No.3). This has one tackle ring each side.

Here are a couple of pics of the timbers in the hold. Unfortunately they are not the large cross-section that Gary (morgan) is talking about. That's an incredible amount of timber to blast through, Gary.

In earlier posts in this topic I queried some aspects of gratings which, hopefully, are now resolved. However, as the subject does not properly belong in this forum, I have posted the continuation in a new thread in the Discussion for a Ship's Deck Furniture, Guns, boats and other Fittings forum. Please find a link here if this is of interest to you. https://modelshipworld.com/topic/34579-scantlings-of-gratings/

This post is a continuation of a post in the Nautical/Naval History section of these forums: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/34553-hms-victory-renovation-outer-planking-removed/ A visit to HMS Victory at Portsmouth added to my uncertainty in the making of gratings. This led me to investigate the subject and I’m now posting my findings on MSW in case there’s something that someone else can take from them. As The Naval history forum is not the right place for this; I post it here where I think it probably belongs. The Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture, 1812 Edition, David Steel. COAMINGS. The raised borders of oak about the edge of the hatches and scuttles, which prevent water from flowing down from the deck. The inside upper edge has a rabbet to receive the gratings. GRATINGS. The lattice coverings of the hatchways, which are made with openings to admit air, or light, by cross battens and ledges. The openings should never be so large as to admit the heel of a man’s shoe, as they may otherwise endanger those who pass over them. BATTENS. ….. Battens for gratings are narrow thin laths of Oak. LEDGES. Oak or fir scantlings used in framing the decks, which are let into the carlings athwartships. The ledges for gratings are similar, but arch or round up agreeable to the head ledges. HEAD-LEDGES. The ‘thwartship pieces which frame the hatchways and ladders. The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War 1600-1815, Brian Lavery. ‘Essentially a grating was made up of strips of timber running fore and aft, and others running athwartships across them. The thwartships timbers, known as ledges, were the deepest. In the early nineteenth century they were cut approximately 3in square in cross-section. Recesses were cut at suitable intervals, to take the battens which ran fore and aft. The battens were as broad as the ledges, but they were only about 3/4in deep, except for the outermost ones, which were deeper, for they gave strength to the structure, and fitted into the recess into the coaming. The grating curved upwards towards the centre line of the ship, as did the head ledge to which it was fitted. The spaces between the battens and ledges were roughly equal to their widths, but this was open to slight adjustment to allow the grating to fit into a specific space. Gratings were nearly always rectangular, except for the few oval ones fitted on the hatches above the steerage on some large ships of the late seventeenth century.’ Brian Lavery also shows photos of the main hatch of an NMM model of a 70-gun ship, c1730, which conforms with this description. To summarise the above, deck grating battens run fore and aft, ledges athwartships, and the battens are cut into recesses on the ledges. However, there does appear to be occasion where the grating location calls for battens to run athwartships, as in the Victory beakhead shown in the photos, below. The Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture, 1812 Edition, David Steel. Table of Each Dimension or Scantling for the Upper Deck Gratings: Summary of upper deck grating scantlings given in the table: Ledges of ships 24-guns and up are 3in broad and 3 1/2in deep, and battens are 3in broad and 3/4in thick. For ships less than 24-guns ledges are 2 1/2in broad and 3in deep, and battens are 2 1/2in broad and 3/4in thick. For Denmark yachts ledges are 2in broad and 2 1/2in deep, and battens are 2in broad and 3/4in thick. For East India ships 818 tons to 1257 tons, West India ships 330 tons to 544 tons, and Packets of 201 tons, ledges are 2 1/2in broad and 3in deep, and battens are 2 1/2in broad and 3/4in thick. For Schooners of 133 tons, ledges are 2in broad and 3in deep, and battens are 2in broad and 5/8in thick. For brigs and sloops ledges are 2 1/2in broad and 3in deep, and battens are 1 1/4in broad and 1 1/4in thick. For other decks, grating scantlings will often differ. Upper Deck Grating with Battens running fore and aft: Middle Deck Grating with Battens running fore and aft: Beakhead Grating with Battens running athwartship:

The stern is on display at the Royal Museums Greenwich, Roger. It was salvaged before she was sunk. Here's a link to it: https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-201426 And I hope you decide to visit the UK again, sometime, but travel can be a bit of an inconvenience. I avoid it whenever I can now.

The RMG have a model of Cornwallis, which they say was constructed alongside the actual ship by the builder’s son. At 1:16 it’s around 20ft x 13ft x 7ft. Here is a link to it: https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66638

Another 74-gun ship that lasted until recently was HMS Cornwallis, which was launched in Bombay in 1813. By coincidence, she spent 144 years in British service, same as Implacable, until being broken-up in 1957. She had participated in few wars before becoming a jetty (1865), then a shore establishment (HMS Wildfire 1916), so she was probably in very poor condition. l don’t know if this was the reason for breaking her up, but there are people on this forum who will know more than I do and it would be interesting to hear from them. This may be a pic of her at Sheerness.

Sorry for the error, Jason. Appreciate the correction.

Here's Implacable and Foundroyant together at Portsmouth.

There are, Jim. When I was quite young there used to be a lot of interesting small ships laid-up on estuaries and river banks, but they've all been removed now. Also, there were all sorts of boats and these included ex-torpedo boats, patrol boats, landing craft, etc. which people had aquired for personal use. They've all disapeared now. I think the authorities wanted to clear them out and most boats now are in marinas with the interesting ones almost all gone.

I doubt that they would have kept the Foundroyant long, though. Duguay Trouin was a French 74 gun ship launched in 1800 and fought against the British at Trafalgar. She was captured at the battle and entered the Royal Navy as HMS Implacable. After 144 years they decided to get rid of her and offered her to the French, but the French also did not want her, so she was towed out to sea in 1949 and deliberately sunk. Here is a video of it.

Shame the ship went. Here's a high-res pic her:

Some more pics:

In 1985, whilst living in London, my work took me to the South coast. Driving into Portsmouth I saw a scrapped submarine from the road, so I stopped, had a walk around and took a few pics. Now living in Gosport, I’ve found out that this was John Pounds’ scrapyard at Tipner and it is just up the water from Portsmouth dockyard and the old Gosport submarine base. The area has been cleared now and maybe someday I’ll try and find out which submarine this was.

I've no idea where the replacement timbers will come from, Roger. Lucky they were able to salvage the trunks being dumped in landfills and save them for ship repairs.

It is staggering and so is the size of the ship when you stand next to it, especially considering that it was a moveable wooden structure, built mostly by human effort (very little machinery), 260 years ago. They estimate that there is 300,000 cubic feet of timber in the ship, and it's mostly held together by wooden treenails and iron bolts that are rods rivetted over washers. The length of the ship is 226ft, displacement 3.500 tons and she carried a crew of 850. https://www.nmrn.org.uk/hms-victory-conservation-log The above link to the NMRN gives information on which parts of the Victory are original (i.e. at the 1765 launch) and these include: Between deck pillars. Keel and keelson. Lower deck and Orlop planking. Stem (some of it). Many fastenings (bolts, trenails etc.). Rudder (probably). Sternpost. Stern timbers. Other items such as deck beams, guns and jeer capstan were in place at Trafalgar in 1805.

I’m inclined to agree with you and I note that the gratings on the beakhead appear to be lapped (see pic below) but it would be interesting if someone could state for sure about this. Whatever the case, David Steel’s Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture is considered an authority on the subject and was published when these ships were being built, so as he states that gratings were made with cross-battens of narrow thin laths of oak, then I would use this method on an RN model of this period rather than a lattice of similar shaped cross members as is often found.

Forecastle:

Middle Deck:

Lower deck grating form the Orlop:

For sure Allan, there are many aspects of the ship that would not be of interest to most people and therefore not photographed in detail. On a visit last year, I noticed that the gratings were made with battens that run longitudinal to the ship. For many of the users here on MSW this is probably common knowledge, but it was news to me, so I looked it up in The Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture, 2nd Edition, 1812. For gratings, battens, and ledges it states the following: GRATINGS. The lattice coverings of the hatchways, which are made with openings to admit air, or light, by cross battens and ledges. The openings should never be so large as to admit the heel of a man’s shoe, as they may otherwise endanger those who pass over them. BATTENS. ….... Battens for gratings are narrow thin laths of oak. LEDGES. Oak or fir scantlings used in framing the decks, which are let into the carlings athwartships. The ledges for gratings are similar, but arch or round up agreeable to the head ledges. Below are some pics that show how the gratings are made on Victory. It makes sense now that the heavy, load bearing grating ledges run athwart the ship, whilst the lighter battens thereby must run longitudinal. Most suprisingly, for me anyway, is that the battens are not lapped into the ledges. The battens sit on top of the ledges and filler pieces are placed between them. Sorry if the above is a bit too much but how they built these ships greatly interests me.

Middle deck, carpenters walk, Admirals cabin, hold, aft gunports:

The Victory Museum (NMRN) aims to restore the Victory as it was in 1805 at the time of the battle of Trafalgar, so fixtures, fittings, artefacts, décor etc. are probably representative of RN ships at that time. If anyone needs a pic of a particular area or component (maybe to provide clarification for a model they’re building) let me know and I’ll post the pics here after my next visit.

Yes, all Victory visitors can view the renovations through the platform built at three different levels and the walkway now goes down to the bottom of the dry dock. I live quite close to the Victory (it’s just a ferry ride across the water) and since the renovations started opening the ship up, I go across every couple of months to see what’s been uncovered. I’ve got a few more pics of the renovations but each of the deck levels exposed are very much a repeat of the one shown above. I do have pics in high resolution if anybody wants a close-up of a particular part.

Here is the HMS Victory Conservation Management Plan (13 MB pdf) which dates the various parts of the ship. victory_cmp_volume_01-.pdf