Howard_And_Olivia

3 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

 Howard, we don't who the makers were. As I said earlier, there were many of these models made except for the one you have.and there are fewer of them. There are major differences in quality and building techniques between one model and the next. This leads me to believe there were several people making these. We scoured the internet trying to find any information about who was involved in making these models but alas, no joy.

 

 If you and your wife decide you want to restore the model I'll take you through it step by step. I know how the yards, mast, and cannons are attached and what you have to do to remove them. It'll be a lot of work (some of it messy, dirty, and smelly) and you'll have to educate yourself about ships and basic ship modeling, mainly rigging but you can do it if you're committed to the project and are determined to see it through. And it won't happen overnight, it may take years depending how much time you're willing to spend on it. 

Thanks, Keith. This is an awesome learning experience for sure. For now we are going to keep it safe in a spare room away from the kids and the 3 cats! Will do some more physical checkup on the boat model itself, in case if we missed any marks.

1 hour ago, Keith Black said:

 Howard, is there a tag on the keel on the port side (left side) at the back near the rudder that reads "Germany" as in the photo below? 

 

Hi, Keith. Thanks for the information. Unfortunately, no tag there. What is the manufacture's name of this Germany company in the photo? Perhaps I might be able to Google on to see if there are some reference to some ship models? Will keep you posted. Thanks.

First of all, Happy New Year.

My bother-in-law just saved this battleship model boat from the curbside. It was from an apt building, so no idea of the previous owner. To my limited knowledge, this battleship does not appear to be modeled after any real one, I think. Is this something worth having a professional to restore/fix? or should we use this as an opportunity to learn how to fix/repair on our own? Thanks.

Howard

22 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

Another thought:  Lifeboats were specialized craft intended to safely carry large numbers of frightened  people who were not trained seamen.  A major problem and loss of life was caused by the difficulty of releasing the tackles used to lower these heavy boats once they had been lowered into the sea.

 

There were in the early 1900’s a number patents granted for systems to more easily and safely release the boats from these tackles.

 

It is, therefore possible, that it was the release mechanism not the boat itself that was submitted for a patent.  Once the patent was granted or denied the mechanism was removed.  That would explain the framing and lack of interior detail.  Look for holes in the stem and sternposts on the inside of the boat.

 

Roger

That's a great point, Roger. I did a search on US patent for that number, however, it appears it's for Mowing Machine (See image attached).

I will take a look when I am there, and see if there are holes in the stem and stern posts.

20 hours ago, catopower said:

I'm curious about the use of the word "patent". Could the word just be used to show that the actual lifeboat was of a patented design, which might suggest that some serious thought was put into its design? I've seen the term used for in reference to a particular type of windlass. It seemed that it was kind of a selling point of the item.

That's a great point, Clare. I did a search on US patent for that number, however, it appears it's for Mowing Machine (See image attached)

8 hours ago, catopower said:

A double-ender like that looks to me like a lifeboat. I tend to agree with John (Jim Lad) that the number looks like a museum catalog number, and I think this would be the most likely possibility.

 

I agree it's a very nice model.

 

Interior? Over the ages things  like that have habit of disappearing. Perhaps someone thought they would repair it, but it never happened (can't say that's never happened to me...).

Thanks, Clare. From the look of the wood, does it appear to be in the mid 1800? or early 1900?

Also, is there a searchable database for the museum catalog number on the internet?

Have a wonderful weekend!

Howard and Olivia

14 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

Yes, "patent models" were once required to be submitted with every patent application. The US Patent and Trademark Office had warehouses full of them going back to the beginning of the government. They eventually dropped the physical model requirement and back in the 1970's or so, as I recall, they cleaned house, retaining some of the historically remarkable ones, which went to the Smithsonian, which once exhibited Abraham Lincoln's patent model for his "Improved Method of Bouying Vessels Over Shoals." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln's_patent

 

 

The rest of the old Patent Office models were sold off to the public and snatched up by antique dealers, finding their way via the retail market to bookshelves and mantles as decorator pieces. I once had a patent attorney colleague who decorated his large patent law firm's offices with them. This could very well be an old Patent Office Model. The models had to depict the invention that was sought to be patented, so they were often partial models with the focus on the patentable aspect of the thing. In this instance, there may have been something inside the model hull that was the focus of the invention and somebody who wanted the hull pulled that out with the intention of building something else inside the hull, but never got around to it. 

Thanks, Bob. I did a quick research and found patent 19,693 (Joseph Francis);URL links below.

Guessing from the 19083 vs 19693 (610 difference), I suppose they are likely from the same year?

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_844264

15 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

The greatest value of any model is assigned by the builder by the time and love he/she put into it.  Many of us only dream of a descendant caring enough to not put in a garage sale.  I see this as a crossroads... you could enter the hobby and carry-on your great grandfather's ship modeling legacy with hopes of restoring the models eventually or you can put some coin down and enjoy them in their own right as family relics.

 

There's no wrong choice here, but we'd love to have you join our ranks.

Thanks, Clark. We might have them professionally restored in early Summer.

27 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

 This model should be kept in "as is" condition including dust. Absolutely nothing needs to be done to it IMHO. 

Thank you, Keith. Will do.

Any recommended display stand for this patent model boat?

19 minutes ago, Baker said:

F19083 is also the service number of :

Name	Pile, Ernest Edward
Official Number:	F19083
Place of Birth:	Exeter, Devon
Date of Birth:	25 April 1887

 

link

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6817254

 

 

 

Thank you, Baker, for this awesome and amazing information. Was Pile, Ernest Edward a model ship builder and/or naval architect?

13 hours ago, Oldsalt1950 said:

It apperas to be a boat design that was submitted to the U.S. Patent office for approval. It would be nice if it were possible to have a clear picture of the rest of the inscription on the stem post by the F19083. Models of invention, devices or their improvement were often submitted when a drawing or the actual object was not possible. The boat is a keeper' Hope this shed some light on what you have. By the way what was your grandfather's profession?

He was with Science Research Associates, then IBM's field engineering dept until retirement. There are no other inscription on the stem post. The shadows adjacent to F19083 inscription are brass nails. I will take another look when we are there later on today.

8 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

Yes, "patent models" were once required to be submitted with every patent application. The US Patent and Trademark Office had warehouses full of them going back to the beginning of the government. They eventually dropped the physical model requirement and back in the 1970's or so, as I recall, they cleaned house, retaining some of the historically remarkable ones, which went to the Smithsonian, which once exhibited Abraham Lincoln's patent model for his "Improved Method of Bouying Vessels Over Shoals." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln's_patent

 

 

The rest of the old Patent Office models were sold off to the public and snatched up by antique dealers, finding their way via the retail market to bookshelves and mantles as decorator pieces. I once had a patent attorney colleague who decorated his large patent law firm's offices with them. This could very well be an old Patent Office Model. The models had to depict the invention that was sought to be patented, so they were often partial models with the focus on the patentable aspect of the thing. In this instance, there may have been something inside the model hull that was the focus of the invention and somebody who wanted the hull pulled that out with the intention of building something else inside the hull, but never got around to it. 

Thank you, Bob, for the detailed information. In regards to the "F19083", what do you think it meant?

Howard and Olivia

48 minutes ago, bruce d said:

Howard, Olivia, that is a nice model. Concerning the "F19083" inscription, can I ask what part of the world you are in (and your grandfather)? No personal info please, it's just that an alpha-numeric like that could be a UK military service number.

Hi, Bruce. We are (Grandfather too) in USA, East Coast (New York).

Upon further estate cleaning today, we found this interesting model boat carefully packed inside a steamer trunk. It was wrapped in

newspaper dated much older than both of us with Grandpa's handwriting description that says "Patent Model Lifeboat". We are

not sure what that means, but definitely look interesting. There's "F19083" written on the interior wood (not Grandpa's handwriting), so

we don't think Grandpa built this one. It's about 30 inches long and very light in weight. The side are all wood with tiny little brass nails

and a few tiny brass screws on the bottom base. Any idea what this model boat is for?

Howard and Olivia

1 hour ago, Bob Cleek said:

For much the same reason as any other work of art. If an amateur grandparent painted a picture of a subject that had been painted many, many times before (particularly a "paint-by-numbers" or "Elvis on black velvet" work,) it's probably not worth much, but, if it's a nice enough painting to look at that you'd want to hang it on your wall, then it's worth cleaning up and framing and hanging it up. It will never bring a high price at an auction, but you will always have a nice picture "painted by my grandfather" hanging on your wall to give you pleasure. On the other hand, if your grandfather was Pablo Picasso...

Thanks, Bob! That's a great point.

41 minutes ago, Roger Pellett said:

When I saw the model in the last picture that you posted I thought, “Hey, that’s my model!”   See rather poor picture below.  My model was built from an A.J. Fisher kit by my father in the early 1940’s.  He never rigged it and when the war ended went on to other projects.  The model that you show, the one without sales appears to be one too.

 

A.J. Fisher was located in Detroit, MI and produced very high quality ship model kits.  The fittings (small parts) included in their kits were unequalled in quality. Hulls were solid as Chris points out and allowed a skilled modeler to produce an outstanding model.  I doubt if many of the kit models made today will hold up as well as yours over the years.

 

These old kit models probably do not have much financial value.  That doesn’t mean that one or perhaps both are not worth restoring.  When I got my model after my mother died, it was filthy and damaged by the movers.  I gave it a good cleaning (saliva on QTips) reglued loose parts, touched up damaged paint, added the mast stubs, and built the glass case.  I treasure this as a tribute to my father’s craftsmanship and hope that my children and granddaughters will also.

 

You will note that the masts on your models are in three sections.  The bottom section known as the lower masts.  The three lower masts and the rigging attached to them on the model without sails appears to be in good shape.  You could clean up the model as I did mine, remove the broken upper masts and rigging and display it in a custom built glass case with just the lower masts and rigging.

 

Roger

That's awesome. Thank you, Roger, for the wonderful and very educational information! Things are definitely made much better in the old days, just like older TV that still works perfectly from the early 80s! Sorry if this is a silly question-- Just curious, why the old kit models don't have any collector value? I would imagine they should increase or at least hold its value due to the high standard of quality? We will try finding a local New York restoration, and also looking to the possibility of exploring on your own as you suggested. Thanks!

Warmly,

Howard & Olivia 

1 hour ago, ccoyle said:

Hi.

 

Please take the following not as any attempt to dissuade you -- just an honest assessment. My best guess is that your models are both built from solid-hull kits. Unfortunately, the rigging for clippers is amongst the most challenging projects that any modeler can take on. It is not the sort of task that we would expect the uninitiated to tackle with high hopes for success. Sadly, professional restoration work presents its own challenge, except that in this case the challenge is monetary -- it's a rare skill, so it doesn't come cheap. It's possible that you might be able to find a local modeler who would do the work out of consideration for the models' sentimental value for you. We can suggest some nearby clubs if you give us an indication of your whereabouts.

 

Kind regards,

Chris

Thank you, Chris, for the informative details about those 2 sailboats. I assume the cost of having professional restoration work done will definitely exceeds the market value and or any collector value?

Yes, please let us know if there are any located in the New York area.  We are located in New York (NYC, Manhattan) and can travel NJ or Upstate NY, if needed.

Warmly,

Howard & Olivia

Hello. We have recently inherited 2 model sail boats from my wife's Grand-Father's estate. Attached are 4 Photos. We don't know anything at all about model boat/ship. These are our first encounter. Sorry for the photo quality and the messy background, as we are still clearing out the estate. The rigging needs TLCs and some other minor repairs. We are not sure if they were built from scratch or from a model kit. The question is if they are worth anything in collectible value that we should get professional doing the repair/restoration? If not, we will try doing the restore/repair on our own because they do hold sentinel value. 

Thank you all for any information that helps us to the right direction. Howard and Olivia.