Eddie

Julie
 
I quite agree with your comments - especailly that build threads help.
 
Looking at build logs from those who are making or who have made the same model, in my case H. M. S. Pickles, is a real help. For newcomers like me, these logs are not only a source of a wealth of knowledge and experience, they are also an inspiration to try harder, go the extra mile and increase the quality of the build.
 
What many of the people on these forums achieve in their model making is unbelievable. Just when you thought you had set your goals high enough, you make the mistake of looking at a new log - and you realise you have a long, long way to go. Still, having goals to aim for is always great.
 
I am following your build with interest and look forward to seeing your progress. Until you posted a photo of the frame on your table, I hadn't quite realised how huge this model is. Wow.
 
Regards
John

Or rum.  
 
Thanks for the tip, Jim!

The bow and stern sections were glued up last night.  This morning I begun the task of joining them together.
 

I added the outer deck beams first.  I found I needed to clamp one end as I worked the joints together.  The Channel Locks have proven to be my savior.   I also found being stingy with the glue at the bottom of the joints helped a lot too.  Due to the sheer, I found it better to put the amidships on a block so I wouldn't stress the structure while pushing the frames in place.
 

When it came time to link the bow and stern together, I added a second block.
 

The clamps helped snug it all together but weren't a lot of help when it came to fully seating the joints flush.  Good ole Channel Locks to the rescue!  They made a difficult task easy.
 

I had to stop here because I didn't have enough clamps.  There are no stores around here that sell clamps other than Home Depot.  They have those little DeWalt clamps in the photo.  The next size up would crush the model.  Nothing in between.  An Amazon delivery is coming today. 

Hi, Julie........
 
If you ever get into a situation where a Titebond glued joint has to come apart for some reason, take a small paint brush and soak the joint with alcohol, let it sit for a couple minutes and carefully try to break the joint apart.  Please do not use your best Scotch, isopropyl or denatured will do.
 
Jim

Hi Styrmann,
 
I have found the members here very helpful.  I don't think any would laugh at anything posted, unless getting a laugh was what was intended. 
 
The great thing about creating a build thread comes in posting pictures.  Sometimes you don't know enough to even ask an intelligent question.  If you post pictures, an experienced member may see something you are doing that needs correction.  If it is not corrected, it could lead to worse problems down the line. 
 
Personally, I think the Endeavour kit warrants a little extra caution if just for the fact that it is an expensive kit (to me, anyway).  I went into a minor panic yesterday when a frame wouldn't fully seat and I couldn't budge it one way or the other.  Images of losing the whole thing were horrifically dancing in my head and I could see hundreds of dollars going down the drain.  In that panic, I was wondering if anyone here could help save the project if I the glue locked the frame in the wrong place.
 
The other part I like about creating a build thread is that one day someone, who is as new to the hobby as me, might see the thread and decide to give model making a try.  Pictures can help in that sense, too.  It seems like a win-win.

Hi again Julie.
Without the treads of KA, and another who calls himself Sailor, I could probably not started the build.
The instructions from Amati are in my opinion for more experienced modellers.
Posting pics from the prossess of my shipbuilding, will make a lot of laughs in this forum.
On the other side, maybe it is a good idea for  learning and experience in future Projects.
 
Styrmann

Complex glue ups (where several joints are glued and joined simultaneously) are my least favorite task in woodworking.  My experience tells me to do whatever is possible to avoid them.  But with this build, you can minimize the number of joints you are gluing but you can't avoid complex glue ups completely.
 
What happened in the first round was the glue in the bottom of the joint had nowhere to go.  The joint was too tight and didn't allow for excess glue to escape.  Not good.  I created snug on the dry fit because so many of the joints presented difficulty in clamping.  Plus I didn't have the right clamps for complex angles.
 
I managed to separate the pieces and cleaned them up.  When I reassembled them, right or wrong, I used a pair of Channel Locks to complete the final seating.  I could feel a 'pop' as the last of the glue was squeezed out.  Most important was to make sure the joints were fully seated and the deck joints were flush. The Channel Locks accomplished that. 

Hi Julie
 
Sorry to hear about the glue problems. I didn't experience this so I can't provide much advice. The general purpose wood PVA glue I used did not start to go tacky until about 5 minutes after application, neither did it appear to swell the wood leading to tightening of the joints. It is however water based so I can see that it could soak into the wood causing swelling and tightness where joints are particularly well made. One alternative is to use 2 part quick set epoxy. I used this extensively on my first model for gluing the frames. The advantage is that it does not soak into the timber to any degree and also has self lubrication properties that ease the slipping of parts together. The down side is that it is a bit more time consuming to make up and clean down.  You may need to experiment to find the best solution.
 
Keith

Well that was unexpected!  I started gluing at the stern.  First two pieces have only one joint.  Third piece had three.  Using a brush to distribute the glue, I coated all the contacting areas.  When I put it together, the frame froze before it was fully seated.  Short of beating it with a hammer, nothing moved it.
 
Titebond III is supposed to have a long set time.  I'm guessing the open end of the plywood soaked up the glue and the joints swelled.  Back to the drawing board. 

Styrmann, if you start a build log, let me know.  I'd love to see how you are doing on the build.
 
Keith, thank you for confirming what I have been thinking. 
 
I've been taking my time, making sure everything is right, but how do I really know what's right?  I have to put some faith in the company that makes a not-so-cheap model sailboat kit.  Part of why I chose this model was in the hopes you get what you pay for.
 
So far I have been impressed with how everything has gone together but some of that probably was the result of making sure all the joints fit snug and flush.  It looks like if you do that, the results will be very good.  At least that's been my experience so far.
 
I also try not to create any unnecessary work for myself.  35 years in construction taught me to work smart, not hard.  You do less work in the same amount of time and the results are better.  Tacking down the deck seems unnecessary.  But this is my first model and I may be completely wrong.  I know I still have a lot to learn.
 
Now, on to the glue up....

Hi Julie
 
I was trying not to be too dogmatic in my views. I think I will come off the fence by saying that I think tacking the deck on is in general a waste of time and effort. Indeed if the skeleton isn't distorted you may even get away without the need for a strong back. The strong back does however have the added benefit of easing holding / fixing during the planking operation.
 
I think my kit had been badly stored at some time before purchase as the plywood was bowed slightly when it came out of the box, this led to the distortion in the assembled skeleton. The shim method for the strong back works well.
 
Happy shopping!
 
Keith

Hi there, Julie Mo.
I am into the same buildingproject at the moment. Similar to you, i have not done this since the 60ties with plasticmodels. Started late aug. and have done the deck by now.
A lot of trial and error including a high stressfactor periodly during the prosess: Hopefully it will be ready sometime.
Thanks to keithAug for help, via the pics of his masterpiece.
 
mvh.
Styrmann
Norway

Thanks, Keith,
 
The way I see it, the only parts of the framing you can pin to the deck during the gluing process is the longitudinal deck beams - fore & aft.  All the frames have to be removed, glued up, and installed.  Part of my question comes from the fact the skeleton, when dry fit, looked fine from all the visual angles I sighted.  When I dry fitted it, it needed no adjustment.  So I'm trying to understand the need to tack the deck down during gluing and add all that extra work.
 
I took another look at it just now and I can see tacking the plywood deck down creating problems when it comes time to remove it.  The plywood deck is so thin I'm imagining it getting torn up during removal.  The strong back seems the better option, best if one side matched the curvature shown on the plan.  That would be rock solid.   But with the tools I have here, I don't see me making that.  The shims will have to do.
 
Back to the store!
 
 

Hi Julie
 
The strong back contacted forward and aft (on the longitudinal stringers) with a little clearance on the intervening frames. I used spacers at the stern end to take care of the athwart ships curvature. Effectively the strong back was locating solidly at 4 points. This was enough to adjust the slight sideways bow and more pronounced twist in my skeleton without altering the hull fore to aft curvature.  You can see from the attached photos that the strong back is about 2/3 the length of the hull. You can also see the spacers (white card) in the bottom left corner.
 
My interpretation is that Amati want you to use the deck pinned in place while the skeleton is glued and thereafter removed while 1st planking is undertaken. This is particularly important with the Amati (unbacked) planking solution as you would need access to the backs of the planks to ease them into edge to edge alignment. This access is available for the initial planks but soon disappears as the planking proceeds, unless of course the deck isn't  fixed in place until later.
 
Keith

Am I missing something in the directions? The way I see it should go is I use the deck to check alignment then remove it, disassemble the dry fit and begin the glue up.
 

 
Table 2 - Fig. 13

 
Or am I supposed to keep the deck beams attached to the plywood decking for alignment purposes?  If it's the latter, I can't see the logic but I can see it creating a lot of seemingly unnecessary work.
 
Which is it?
 
Or should the decking be attached only for the purposes of keeping alignment while planking?
 
Keith, I know you said you used the strong back, but wouldn't that needed to have the same curvature the deck has from bow to stern?  You couldn't use a flat board or it would take the shape out of the structure.

Hi Julie
 
My observations on the questions you pose are as follows:-
 
The round mast bothered me also - particularly as the 1989 Endeavour definitely has an oval mast. If I had thought about it early enough I would manufactured the mast out of a square section core with semicircular dowels front and back and then tapered this. I didn't and made do with a round mast. This isn't ideal but wasn't particularly noticeable on the finished model. Pragmatism over perfection for me in this case.
 
I din't nail the deck in place as suggested in the instructions. Bolting on the oak plank strong back removed the need for attaching the deck until after I had completed the 1st planking. Having completed 1st planking I cut a dowel of about 1 foot in length and the same diameter as the mast and used this to align the forward section of the deck relative to the frames (similar to what you are doing). With the deck in place (held with elastic bands passed around the deck and hull) I used a square to make sure that the dowel was at right angles to the deck fore and aft. As the deck rises towards the bow this gave a natural rearward rake to the mast. I also used the square to judge that the dummy mast was at right angles to the deck athwart ships. Because of the curvature of the deck the latter operation required equal thicknesses of packing to be placed at the deck edges (to compensate for the curvature). Once I was happy with the location of the dummy mast I drilled though the deck into the frames at a number of locations with a 0.5mm drill. I then removed the deck applied the glue and relocated the deck back in position using dressmakers pins through the pre drilled holes (no nailing required). The deck was held in place during gluing with elastic bands. Once the fore section of the deck was in place the rear section was easily located by butting it up to the fore section.
 
I wasn't content with accepting a straight mast but also wanted to impart rearward curvature in addition to the rearward rake. I did this by using the back stay to spring the mast towards the stern. This of course had implications for the shape of the mainsail at the luff. Hence the templating that I had to do when shaping the sails. My 1989 Endeavour has a fixed back stay as well as pairs of running back stays on either side. The fixed back stay is absent on your 1934 version which relies solely on the running back stays (a recipe for dismasting if you ask me!).

Funny how that happens.   But I have thus far refused to purchase anything I already have sitting in storage.  So I have to convince myself I really don't own "that" before I can buy it.

Hi, Julie.....
 
They are probably trying to tell you to drill some holes and "pin" using round metal or wood dowels (tree nails) to hold everything in place temporarily while you are gluing the assembly.
 
Is there no rake to the mast in the drawing??  You are using a combination square to line it up.  Most masts have a slight "rake" leaning backwards.
 
I thought I saw an ever growing sample of newly purchased tools on your "workbench" and we will probably see a few more.  The build looks like it is coming along nicely....... keep up the good work.
 
Jim
 
p.s. I just re-read the part in your log about the rake in the mast and your question about it.
 
 

I haven't played with the rudder yet but, and you'll probably think I'm crazy, the round mast bothers me.  It looks too much like what you'd find on a ship built in the 1800s.  Ranger, the defender of the 1934 America's Cup, had a aluminum spars and rod rigging.  I know Endeavour had rod rigging and since Thomas Sopwith, her owner, was an aeroplane magnate who was very hands-on, she probably had aluminum spars also.  And the mast would have been an oval shape, not round. 
 
Anyway...
 
I took everything apart and re-checked each joint, then reassembled it dry.  The instructions say to nail the deck temporarily and check the fit everywhere, making sure the cockpit and mast holes align.

 

 
I can't see any way I can drive nails the way it is.  If I had my shop and tools, I could make a cradle, but I don't.  I picked up that Bessey vise on Amazon and it's pretty handy.  I would probably need 2-3 more to stabilize the structure enough to drive nails and keep the structure rigid. 
 
The way the instructions read, they say to attach the deck, check the fit, then begin the glue-up.  It doesn't say anything about removing the deck first but I'm guessing they just assumed the model maker would know.
 
I don't know how Amati intended the mast to stand but I'm going to rake it back a touch.  I'm thinking of picking up a long dowel larger than the mast holes and see if I can create an oval shaped mast.  I know I will never be happy with a round mast.
 
As for trying to create rod rigging, has anyone used silver solder for stays and shrouds?

Julie 
 
Re movable rudder - I did consider it but decided not to because of the issue you have identified. Perhaps the simplest solution would be to shorten the rudder by 1/4 inch at the keel end and add the 1/4 inch to the hull to give the extra "meat" required.
 
Model sailing yachts are far less stiff than the real thing, the way that scale works isn't linear and modellers who convert yachts for RC nearly always make the keel much deeper (and therefore out of scale). It's all to do with a fluid dynamics property called Reynolds Number which is a bit nerdy. They therefore wouldn't have the problem that you identify.
 
Keith

Dry fit - Centerboard
 
The mahogany parts sheet is very thin.  The centerboard is attached by a tiny nail.  I can see it breaking off very easily.
 

With the three pieces in the picture in place, I find the centerboard fitting in snugly.  There will be a finish on the CB so, before I glue any of it together, I am applying several coats of lacquer to the CB.  There is a tiny piece not in the picture that acts as a stopper for the CB but it fits loosely and falls out.  That will be tricky to glue in place.
 

CB down in approximate position.  Piece L47 and the other pieces along the keel bottom will need some work after glue up.  There is no piece between the CB and rudder.  I can see why Keith filled in the spaces between the frames.  It could be a challenge to fair them as is.
 

Fortunately, the plans show you right where to drill the hinge holes.

Thank you for the photo, Keith.  I can see how you followed the lines at the gunnels and also at the bulb and allowed them to join where the hull meets the keel.  This is very appealing visually.  The idea of starting at the bottom and working up didn't work for me.
 
As I am looking at the rudder, I find myself wanting to make it movable.  There seems to be very little "meat" in the frames where the rudder hinge would be.  But this is a model that can be modified for RC so there must be a way.
 

Julie
 
Re your question about how the planking will look at the gunnel line. This is the best photo of the planking that I have. If you zoom in and look closely you can see many of the planks and even some of the end to end abutments.
 
Keith

Keith - a fascinating read.
 
Do you have a picture of your "Piece of oak"?
 
Not that I could reproduce it at present as I haven't gone down the 'invest in machine's' route yet - but knowledge is knowledge for future purposes!
 
Regards
John

Hi Julie
 
I hate the thought of painting mahogany as well.
 
Creating a trapezoid is only necessary where tight curvatures are involved - i.e. the bulb.
 
I have a piece of oak abut 12 inches long and 1 inch square in which I have machined grooves (miniature circular saw). I have 2 grooves per side each near the edge - 8 grooves in total. The grooves are 1, 2, 3 and 4 mm wide and 1 and 2 mm deep. I sand the planks by placing them in the relevant groove (to support them) and then sanding along their length while holding the sanding block at the correct angle.
 
The backing will help with the fairing the frames. The laser burn also helps - the fair shouldn't remove all of it as it gives you an indication of when you have gone far enough - i.e a thin line of it remains. Sand along the length of the hull and use a sanding block which spans 4 frames (3 gaps).
 
A couple of other Endeavour builds featured in NRG do start at the bulb and deck and close at about water line height. The closing pieces are typically thin triangles. Other planks are also tapered to a greater or lesser degree. I wanted nice parallel planks without odd shaped closing pieces. So I started at the deck and worked towards the bulb. This worked well. All this however is relevant to the 2nd planking. You have a bit more flexibility on first planking.  
 
Your guitars are wonderful - very professional.
 
Keith