Dr PR Posted May 31, 2020 Share #31 Posted May 31, 2020 (edited) Mike, Here are some references for determining rigging sizes. I haven't yet sorted through them all to determine the rigging sizes for my model. George Biddlecomb's The Art of Rigging, page 117, has 38 pages of detailed information about rigging sizes for a wide variety of ships. The book also gives detailed instructions how to rig ships, spar dimensions, etc. James Lee's The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, page 185, describes the proportions of rigging to mast diameter. He says "With only a very few exceptions the sizes of both standing and running rigging can be worked out in relation to the size of the appropriate mast stay. The sizes of the stays can be ascertained by comparison with the size of the lower stays which in turn are given in ratio size of the lower masts." If the mast diameter = M Lower stays = 1/2 M Topmast stay = 1/2 the size of the lower stays = 1/4 M Topgallant stays = 1/2 the size of the topmast stays = 1/8 M and so on. He then goes on for five pages describing the remaining standing and running rigging relative to the stays. Harold Underhill's Masting and Rigging of the Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier, Chapter X, (30 pages), page 244, gives tables and formulas for calculating mast, spar and rigging dimensions. Wolfram zu Mondfeld's Historic Ship Models, page 272, has a relatively short two page table of standing rigging sizes, and page 308 has a two page table of running rigging sizes. These tables are for different periods. They give rigging diameter relative to the thickness of the main stay, which he says is 0.166% of the diameter of the main mast at deck level. I think that must be a typo, maybe 16.6% or 1/6 the diameter of the mast. These proportions are for hemp rigging. Steel rigging was about 33% smaller diameter. If you aren't too anal about the rigging of your model zu Mondfeld's book is a very good reference. Also, note that the "authorities" don't agree about the sizes of rigging. For example, Lee says the lower stays are 1/2 the diameter of the lower masts - 50%. But zu Mondfeld says they are 16.6% the diameter of the mast. That is a huge difference! Biddlecombe and Underhill just list rigging sizes for "characteristic" vessel sizes. I have never seen a model or actual ship with stays half the diameter of the mast. However, stays are often doubled, so each strand need only be half the diameter of a single strand. And often an extra "preventer" is rigged just in case one of the stays fails. Keep in mind the amount of material in a line is not directly proportional to the diameter. The cross section area is = pi times the radius squared. So doubling the radius give four times the area. The diameters of the lines in a doubled stay would need to be only about 70% of the diameter of a single line for the stay. So, using Lee's figures, a single strand of a doubled stay would need be only 35% of the mast diameter. Still, that is more than twice the diameter zu Mondfeld gives! EDIT: Rope/cable sizes are given in circumference, not diameter. So a stay 1/2 the diameter of the mast has a circumference equal to half the diameter of the mast. Circumference == pi * diameter, so diameter = circumference/pi. Therefore Stay diameter = 0.5 * mast diameter/pi Also, Lloyd's of London produced tables of rigging sizes required for ships they would insure, and this strongly influenced the rigging on vessels. I don't have those tables, but they might be on line somewhere. One of these days, when I get caught up on a bunch of other projects, I will figure out the rigging layout and calculate the rigging sizes for my Baltimore clipper model. Edited February 7, 2021 by Dr PR mtaylor 1 Quote Phil Current build: USS Cape MSI-2 Current build: Albatros topsail schooner Previous build: USS Oklahoma City CLG-5 CAD model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelnou Posted June 1, 2020 Author Share #32 Posted June 1, 2020 Thanks for all. About the mast's collars, there are none available in the kit's box. I am expected tu add them on the masts. I make them with rope and glue. Is it the right method ? About the level of the topsail yard lift blocks I had put them above the foremast cap, at 0,60 time the cap to uppermost collar distance. When I write piton, it is similar to eyepin. On 5/30/2020 at 10:11 PM, popeye2sea said: Backstays should be set up with deadeyes These deadeyes are they the same than those used for shrouds ? On 5/30/2020 at 10:11 PM, popeye2sea said: I would seize, or hook, a deadeye or block to the ring bolt . . . This block is it a single or double to make backstay tackle ? Wood hearts could they be used to attach different front stays on bowsprit elements ? About the shrouds and stays diameters, your reasoning is right, but do you think honestly that ship builders took into account the different strengths depending of the mast's height to differentiate rope diameters ? I have at my disposal in dark colors 0,90 and 0,50 mm. In natural color I have 0,75, 0,65 and 0,30 mm. About shrouds, which diameter for laniards ? To finish with yards rigging, the "classical" rule require halyard+lifts+braces+ parrel elements. Knowing that I have fitted the yards with an "opened yoke", and that I wish to reduce aloft rigging, I consider to apply the set-up below , Lower yard : halyard+lifts+braces+ parrel Topsail yard : halyard+lifts+braces Topgallant yard : halyard+braces What is your opinion about this rigging for a Baltimore topsail schooner knowing that, in my opinion, it is not an exact science and that there is certainly not just the right configuration. Take care Mike mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr PR Posted June 2, 2020 Share #33 Posted June 2, 2020 Mike, Everything I have read says that the diameter of the standing rigging was determined by the forces it was expected to withstand. Because the lowest sails were the largest, and these generated the largest forces on the lower masts, shrouds and stays for the lower masts were larger diameter than those for higher masts with smaller sails. SO yes, I do think that there were many sizes of rigging on real ships. But, schooners carried lighter masts and rigging that the large square riggers, and everything I have seen applies to the larger ships. So we really are left to guess about the topsail schooners. I think your rigging plan is fine. I am not sure what you mean by "collars." Are you referring to are the places where lines are fastened to masts with multiple turns around the mast> I have seen used where the line pulls directly out from the mast. Where the force on ht eline pulls down at a sharp angle "shoulders" were often used. These were either wooden pieces set into the mast that prevented the line from slipping down, or places where the dianeter of the mast was reduced to create the shoulder. mtaylor 1 Quote Phil Current build: USS Cape MSI-2 Current build: Albatros topsail schooner Previous build: USS Oklahoma City CLG-5 CAD model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelnou Posted June 11, 2020 Author Share #34 Posted June 11, 2020 Popeyetosea, Beginners can ask amazing questions, it's normal... If you could answer to my june 1 post, that will help me for some rigging points of detail. Concerning rigging threads diameters, I use now the informations given by Biddlecombe at the end of his book "The art of rigging". Very useful. See you soon Mike mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted June 11, 2020 Share #35 Posted June 11, 2020 On 6/1/2020 at 6:52 AM, Michelnou said: Thanks for all. About the mast's collars, there are none available in the kit's box. I am expected tu add them on the masts. I make them with rope and glue. Is it the right method ? About the level of the topsail yard lift blocks I had put them above the foremast cap, at 0,60 time the cap to uppermost collar distance. When I write piton, it is similar to eyepin. These deadeyes are they the same than those used for shrouds ? This block is it a single or double to make backstay tackle ? Wood hearts could they be used to attach different front stays on bowsprit elements ? About the shrouds and stays diameters, your reasoning is right, but do you think honestly that ship builders took into account the different strengths depending of the mast's height to differentiate rope diameters ? I have at my disposal in dark colors 0,90 and 0,50 mm. In natural color I have 0,75, 0,65 and 0,30 mm. About shrouds, which diameter for laniards ? To finish with yards rigging, the "classical" rule require halyard+lifts+braces+ parrel elements. Knowing that I have fitted the yards with an "opened yoke", and that I wish to reduce aloft rigging, I consider to apply the set-up below , Lower yard : halyard+lifts+braces+ parrel Topsail yard : halyard+lifts+braces Topgallant yard : halyard+braces What is your opinion about this rigging for a Baltimore topsail schooner knowing that, in my opinion, it is not an exact science and that there is certainly not just the right configuration. Take care Mike I will try to answer your questions, but you must realize that my answers are only generalities, you should do some research for what is appropriate for your particular ship/situation. 1. Building up your mast collars with thread wrappings glued around the mast should work. 2. Yes, the deadeyes for the backstays can be the same as the shrouds. 3. The backstay tackle should be at least double blocks. Treble is good too. 4. Wood hearts were sometimes used on the fore stays. 5. Ship riggers always take into account the loads that each part of the rig must bear. The height of the mast was not the important part. Rigging diameter was calculated based on the weight of the yards and sails and those numbers decrease as you go further aloft. 6. Laniards for shrouds should be half, or a bit less, than their respective shrouds. The same goes for stays. 7. In my opinion if you are going to set up your yards in the normal manner (not set flying) then you need to have halyards, lifts, braces, and parrels for all. I hope that helps. Regards, mtaylor 1 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelnou Posted June 14, 2020 Author Share #36 Posted June 14, 2020 Thank you for the advices. Concerning the stay or backstay tackles, I think of doing the next schematic diagram with two double blocks. Is it OK Mike mtaylor and popeye2sea 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr PR Posted June 14, 2020 Share #37 Posted June 14, 2020 Mike, I have seen the double blocks idea used. But you want the sheet to come down from the upper block to a fastening on deck or on the bulwark. So just invert the blocks - the fixed end of the line would be on the upper block that is attached to the backstay. A similar rig was used for loading tackles (burtons). Some schooners used ordinary deadeyes for the backstays. mtaylor and popeye2sea 2 Quote Phil Current build: USS Cape MSI-2 Current build: Albatros topsail schooner Previous build: USS Oklahoma City CLG-5 CAD model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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