Staghound 1850 by rwiederrich - 1/96 - Extreme Clipper

[ClipperFan]

On 7/22/2024 at 2:35 PM, rwiederrich said:

I see you used a 36" door...why not a 28" door...that would save you 8" extending the clearance between the portico roof and the mizzen.....?

 

Rob

Rob,

In keeping with the rear coach house front fascia on Glory of the Seas I figured a 30" door was most sensible. As far as I can tell, that's how the actual section of the door is. The rest is cladding around the door. 

[ClipperFan]

@rwiederrich

Rob, making doors 28" like you suggest, what overall reduced size should the portico be, maybe 7'? Chappelle's deck illustration shows a much lower height than the 8' choice of mine. I still think for safety's sake, that a rail of some sort should be in place. I'm going to redo the illustration using 7' square to see how much of a difference it makes. Let me know which you believe makes most sense.

[rwiederrich]

11 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

To give a sense of how challenging making transcripts can be, here are a few screenshots of Henry Hall's "Notebooks for Shipbuilding in the United States 1881-1883, Volume II, Models and Measurements" exhaustively detailed handwritten notes, March 24, 1883, New York. This is just a sample set of pages enumerating all scantlings of every one of Donald McKay's clipper ships, including Stag Hound. Incidentally, I scoured all notes regarding Stag Hound, there's no mention at all of the lower keel being 39 inches. You're welcome, by the way. This comes courtesy of Scott Bradner's excellent sobco.com site. For those who really want to see this entire pdf file, here's the link:

 

http://www.sobco.com/ship_model/fc/files/Hall-Models_and_Measurements-1883.pdf

 

Note: on a cell phone, hold your finger to open a new tab. On laptop, right click to open in a new tab, which should launch the pdf. Then click "open" to view or "download" to save it. 

Amazing documents.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

@rwiederrich

Rob, making doors 28" like you suggest, what overall reduced size should the portico be, maybe 7'? Chappelle's deck illustration shows a much lower height than the 8' choice of mine. I still think for safety's sake, that a rail of some sort should be in place. I'm going to redo the illustration using 7' square to see how much of a difference it makes. Let me know which you believe makes most sense.

If you reduced the extension by a foot..but left the width of the portico similar to what Chappelle drew...that would still provide ample real-estate for perimeter stanchions.

 

Enough room inside to enter, turn and descend.  With nice windows on the front for ample lighting.  Even if you only reduced it the 8" I mentioned it would still work...IMV.

 

Duncan says *square*...but from his other Vague descriptions....it could simply imply it doesn't extend past the 4ft insertion into the poop deck and no further then the mizzen.  As far as its width, it could be wider as Champelle notes.   Some paintings even make the suggestion. Your thoughts?

 

Rob 

Edited Thursday at 12:23 PM by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

If you reduced the extension by a foot..but left the width of the portico similar to what Chappelle drew...that would still provide ample real-estate for perimeter stanchions.

 

Enough room inside to enter, turn and descend.  With nice windows on the front for ample lighting.  Even if you only reduced it the 8" I mentioned it would still work...IMV.

 

Duncan says *square*...but from his other Vague descriptions....it could simply imply it doesn't extend past the 4ft insertion into the poop deck and no further then the mizzen.  As far as its width, it could be wider as Champelle notes.   Some paintings even make the suggestion. Your thoughts?

 

Rob 

@rwiederrich

Rob, I seem to find where Duncan McLean is vague is on his sparse description of ornamental embellishment. When it comes to construction details, I find him to be much more precise and specific. Interpreting his words is where I feel other modelers have strayed from historic accuracy. We have precious little as is to describe a stairway entrance other than this one line: "The deck itself is 44 feet long, and in its front, amidships, is a small square house or portico, to the entrance of the cabins."

I feel like adhering to this even somewhat vague description honors documented accuracy. What's left up to conjecture, is size and placement. Chappelle's choice in 1967 was to sink the house halfway into the poop deck and have an apparent height of 6 feet. That would probably mean a 5 foot doorway, since the bottom lintel's elevated and the top needs some space too. I can see a 7 foot or maybe 6 & 1/2 foot height. Then again, why not make the portico flush mounted, with a front facing sliding door? That gives much more clearance. Either way, it still makes sense to have some sort of safety rail, since at minimum it's preventing a 6 foot fall injury. I'll post more revised concepts to see what makes most sense.

Edited Thursday at 02:15 PM by ClipperFan
grammar correction

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

"in its front, amidships, is a small square house or portico, to the entrance of the cabins."

From his own words, it appears there is structure to the portico...not  a flush front with sliding door.  Square, means to me just that.  With a four ft. recess into the poop deck.  I'll be interested in seeing your examples.

 

Rob

Edited Thursday at 03:13 PM by rwiederrich

[Rick310]

Rob, clipperfan, I would be hesitant to place too much stock in paintings that were probably not rendered from direct observation as Buttersworth and China trade paintings.  Details that you are discussing would probably not be a concern of an artist painting a maritime scene.

Rick

[ClipperFan]

"Stag Hound" by John Scott, The Sportsman's Repository 1845. Another good source for a naturally realistic Stag Hound figurehead. The more I look at the dogs, they're sort of like scruffy looking greyhounds. 😉

[rwiederrich]

McKay was impressing the idea of Speed with the Staghound.  Yes a scruffy greyhound.  Personally, I'm using your rendering as my model....I like its features and gait.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, Rick310 said:

Rob, clipperfan, I would be hesitant to place too much stock in paintings that were probably not rendered from direct observation as Buttersworth and China trade paintings.  Details that you are discussing would probably not be a concern of an artist painting a maritime scene.

Rick

Rick...this is a true statement.....however...some renderings are not far off...others are...well...pretty much a different ship all together.

 

Rob

[Rick310]

It’s the ones that are close that are the most difficult to evaluate.  
Rick

[rwiederrich]

16 minutes ago, Rick310 said:

It’s the ones that are close that are the most difficult to evaluate.  
Rick

Hense, the wrestling match we are currently engaged in.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Here's a perfect example of a well established artist who created a stunningly gorgeous ship portrayal that's yet inaccurate. James E Buttersworths Sovereign of the Seas has a notable place of prominence in The Old State House, Boston. Probably my favorite depiction of this huge McKay clipper. He apparently never knew how to properly paint the unique McKay bow. His portrayal of the Neptune figurehead goes impossibly across a good portion of the ship's hull. Still it is a lovely piece.

[Rick310]

7 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

McKay was impressing the idea of Speed with the Staghound.  Yes a scruffy greyhound.  Personally, I'm using your rendering as my model....I like its features and gait.

 

Rob

Interesting that the Buttersworth painting of Sovereign of the Seas depicts a fished mizzen mast with mast bands .  
Does anyone know if there is a Duncan Mc Lean article of the Sovereign of the Seas that mentions if the mizzen is a built mast?

Rick

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, Rick310 said:

Interesting that the Buttersworth painting of Sovereign of the Seas depicts a fished mizzen mast with mast bands .  
Does anyone know if there is a Duncan Mc Lean article of the Sovereign of the Seas that mentions if the mizzen is a built mast?

Rick

 

[ClipperFan]

21 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

 

Rick,

Boston Daily Atlas, June 19, 1852

http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/News/BDA/BDA(1852-06-19).html

 

"All her lower masts are made from the heads to the steps, each mast in five pieces, bolted and hooped together."

 

Regarding her figurehead:

 

"Her lines forward, as they ascend above the water, become convex, to correspond with her outline on the rail, and her bow is plain, without even trail boards, and terminates with the figure of a sea god, half man half fish, with a conch shell raised to his mouth, as if in the act of blowing it. The figure accords with the sheer of the bow, is well executed, and forms a beautiful finish." "The rest of her hull is painted black, and her figurehead is bronzed sea color "

 

One item Buttersworth captured accurately was her large rear coach house, with upper rails on turned stanchions identical to what's seen on Glory of the Seas. It makes sense too, since Sovereign of the Seas was about the same size. This fallacy of a ridiculously small rear coach house seen on every Sovereign  of the Seas model I've ever seen, flies in the face of the actual McLean description:

 

"She has a full topgallant forecastle, a large house amidships, and a spacious trunk cabin, in two divisions, built into a half poop deck, with steerage room abaft." 

 

That says clearly the rear trunk cabin took up the entire poop deck with just enough room left alongside for crew to work the ship and astern for steerage. Thanks to the generousity of Michael Mjelde who shared another ultra-rare Glory of the Seas stern photo, we now know for a fact that sides of these trunk cabin-coach houses actually narrow with the hull to provide consistent working area for crew. That and the rear companionway was offset to port, not central mounted.

 

Here's my reconstruction (on back of an envelope) of the Sovereign of the Seas figurehead, half man half fish sea god with a conch shell raised to his lips. Note: navel hoods and cutwater are included, with  merman tail incorporated into the cutwater. This still reflects a large figurehead but doesn't compromise her bow.

 

But now, we must get back to Rob's purpose for this build log, that of realizing for the first time ever, an accurate model of Donald McKay's premiere inaugural extreme clipper Stag Hound. 

Edited 18 hours ago by ClipperFan
additional information

[ClipperFan]

11 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

From his own words, it appears there is structure to the portico...not  a flush front with sliding door.  Square, means to me just that.  With a four ft. recess into the poop deck.  I'll be interested in seeing your examples.

 

Rob

@rwiederrich

as promised earlier, here's my 1:48th scale, in-process conceptual illustration of a one foot smaller square house portico. Details to be added are faux pillars as seen on the front fascia on Glory of the Seas. I added just enough roof molding to match the structure evenly with a 32" high safety rail on turned stanchions. That makes dimensions 7' wide square by 7' 32" high. The same rail surrounds the roof, since falls from five or seven feet could cause severe injuries. Illustrations show starboard side view and this time a fore view too. There would be 3 equally-sized curved arch windows in front, with twin smaller ones in back. I think we've now found our correctly sized portico!

[rwiederrich]

Rich...I like this representation.  I'm not sure 3 windows are needed on the forward side...since the middle window is fully blocked by the mizzen......still it lets in ample light.  Love the curved door and woodwork.  The roof height is right in line with the main poop rail foot, or top of the monkey rail.  Making the main poop rail even with the portico rail.

This representation is probably the best....given the Duncan description and keeping with McKay documented practices.  Not to mention what seams logical.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

22 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Rich...I like this representation.  I'm not sure 3 windows are needed on the forward side...since the middle window is fully blocked by the mizzen......still it lets in ample light.  Love the curved door and woodwork.  The roof height is right in line with the main poop rail foot, or top of the monkey rail.  Making the main poop rail even with the portico rail.

This representation is probably the best....given the Duncan description and keeping with McKay documented practices.  Not to mention what seams logical.

 

Rob

@rwiederrich

Rob, i'll continue following Michael Mjelde's excellent front fascia work to add faux columns and complete the image of a Grecian style, small, square portico. As far as a middle front window is concerned, it was for providing light inside. However, if you think rigging might risk damage, a separate panel can easily be substituted.

[rwiederrich]

26 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

@rwiederrich

Rob, i'll continue following Michael Mjelde's excellent front fascia work to add faux columns and complete the image of a Grecian style, small, square portico. As far as a middle front window is concerned, it was for providing light inside. However, if you think rigging might risk damage, a separate panel can easily be substituted.

The proximity of the fife rail and the portico, already introduces possible rigging interference.  But that is the nature of the beast.  Also the insertion of the fife rail into the portico on its leading edges will eliminate any gothic pillars...unless the rail can interrupt the pillar midway?  I'd like to see what you come up with.

 

Rob

Edited yesterday at 01:19 PM by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

Came across something interesting. Chapelle...draws some interesting features on the fife bits.  I wondered if they could be part of a winch or something....then I came across this image, that shows exactly what the drawing is trying to exhibit.

 

   Winches built right onto the fife bits

Edited yesterday at 03:47 PM by rwiederrich

[Luis Felipe]

Hi, may be this other finds in the web can be useful:

[Luis Felipe]

Als o, I try to compare the lines of the several references, pls forgive my poor use of digital tools. The lines are those of the Monthly Nautical Magazine, Chapelle,  & Crotters. More or less the lines somehow coincide.

 

[Luis Felipe]

Finally, an Staghound:

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, Luis Felipe said:

Hi, may be this other finds in the web can be useful:

This is a good writeup.  Nearly word for word from Duncan McLean.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, Luis Felipe said:

Finally, an Staghound:

Great image...coupled with Rich's drawing, I should be able to model a good likeness.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

5 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

The proximity of the fife rail and the portico, already introduces possible rigging interference.  But that is the nature of the beast.  Also the insertion of the fife rail into the portico on its leading edges will eliminate any gothic pillars...unless the rail can interrupt the pillar midway?  I'd like to see what you come up with.

 

Rob

@rwiederrich.

Rob, where my observation of the coach house front fascia on Glory of the Seas and Michael Mjelde's may differ is in depth perception. Michael's illustration appears to show half pillars which project outward. For some reason, my perception is that they seem to be recessed. That's why I refer to them as "faux" structures. We'll see if you like my results or not. Either way, they won't interfere with safety rails which I see as being inserted into the central sides of the house.

[rwiederrich]

Riiight.

 

While you're at it...can you tell me the length of the Stadhound.....much like Atheana?  7ft? or so?

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Came across something interesting. Chapelle...draws some interesting features on the fife bits.  I wondered if they could be part of a winch or something....then I came across this image, that shows exactly what the drawing is trying to exhibit.

 

   Winches built right onto the fife bits

@Luis Felipe good catch on those winches. Maybe Rob can let us know if these would have been installed on fore and main masts. That particular item isn't illustrated on the mizzen, so it makes me wonder if it had to do with the smaller yardarms on the mizzen?

[ClipperFan]

51 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Great image...coupled with Rich's drawing, I should be able to model a good likeness.

 

Rob

@Luis Felipe

that is a great Staghound image. It's exaclty what I see when reading the description in the Boston Daily Atlas. You can see how, unlike a more lithe Greyhound build, the Staghound is stockier and more robust.