Staghound 1850 by rwiederrich - 1/96 - Extreme Clipper

[rwiederrich]

27 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

My preliminary Google search for 1900s era sailing ship deck prisms consistently resulted in the hexagonal green version I shared. The round prism you favor appears to me to be more modern.

I got the same info.  The reason the glass was green is because it was made from *Float* glass.  Typical because of the higher mineral content.   The reason I purposefully chose the design I did, was because at the scale I'm modeling them in, the hexagonal shape nearly takes on a round appearance...being less then 1/16" in size.   You want to make dozens of hexagon prism lights smaller than a 1/16 of an inch in size?  And keep your sanity?

I didn't think so......😁

 

Rob(I'll talk to the chief and see what I can do)

[rwiederrich]

I contacted Mike....lets wait and see what he says about the bitt winches.

 

Rob

[Rick310]

At this scale, round seems reasonable.and more easily reproduced.

Better a slightly inaccurate representation than a bunch of differing octagonal shapes.

Rick

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

True....good point.  Lets ask Mikey....😄  He'll ea....., I mean, .....Knows everything.

 

Not to be a rivet counter😜...but the iron ones are called Bitts my friend.

 

Rob(truth seeker)

Rob, 

Meh... bitts, bollards. Neither one is edible. 🙂

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

I got the same info.  The reason the glass was green is because it was made from *Float* glass.  Typical because of the higher mineral content.   The reason I purposefully chose the design I did, was because at the scale I'm modeling them in, the hexagonal shape nearly takes on a round appearance...being less then 1/16" in size.   You want to make dozens of hexagon prism lights smaller than a 1/16 of an inch in size?  And keep your sanity?

I didn't think so......😁

 

Rob(I'll talk to the chief and see what I can do)

Rob,

To be technically astute, at 1:96th scale 1/16" = 6", 1/32nd" = 3" so actually a "skoch" above 1/32nd" would do the trick 😉 ! Maybe you could use a teeny-tiny phillips head. Just poke a little bitty hole and fill it with green colored ink....

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

Here you go! A hectagonal prism, sketched at 1/16th". I tried to get down to 1/32nds & 1/2" but the tip of my lead pencil isn't sharp enough... 🙂 At this scale, like you said, it won't even be noticeable. Still, just including a tiny representation would lend an air of serious authenticity 

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, 

Meh... bitts, bollards. Neither one is edible. 🙂

Well Campbell calls them bollards.  One thing different from Glory.  Duncan McLean said Staghound had patent ventilation bollards/bitts.  That means she had metal(brass) bitts.  Like this. 

[rwiederrich]

52 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

To be technically astute, at 1:96th scale 1/16" = 6", 1/32nd" = 3" so actually a "skoch" above 1/32nd" would do the trick 😉 ! Maybe you could use a teeny-tiny phillips head. Just poke a little bitty hole and fill it with green colored ink....

1/32”.   That’s a small drop of paint.  If you’re any good at spilling paint.   
Now draw up a schematic where they’d be on the poop deck. 
Rob

[rwiederrich]

9 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Here you go! A hectagonal prism, sketched at 1/16th". I tried to get down to 1/32nds & 1/2" but the tip of my lead pencil isn't sharp enough... 🙂 At this scale, like you said, it won't even be noticeable. Still, just including a tiny representation would lend an air of serious authenticity 

You didn’t bring the right tools for the job(a very sharp pencil)…….🧐 sheeeesh .

 

Hey…I talked to Mike ,  and he had a lot to say about Chapelle.  He said he didn’t have a peer review to check his work.   But further research shows that the kind of winch I’m referring to was found on clippers of the period.  Campbell has a good drawing of one…..and this matches that of Chapelle. 
Mike wasn’t definitive, but was sure no such winch was on Staghound.  I’m hoping to stop by and visit him this week….an discuss it further 

 

Rob
 

[ClipperFan]

16 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

You didn’t bring the right tools for the job(a very sharp pencil)…….🧐 sheeeesh .

 

Hey…I talked to Mike ,  and he had a lot to say about Chapelle.  He said he didn’t have a peer review to check his work.   But further research shows that the kind of winch I’m referring to was found on clippers of the period.  Campbell has a good drawing of one…..and this matches that of Chapelle. 
Mike wasn’t definitive, but was sure no such winch was on Staghound.  I’m hoping to stop by and visit him this week….an discuss it further 

 

Rob
 

Rob,

So winches weren't installed on Stag Hound. That being the case, would those large angled wooden strakes in front of the masts be omitted? Instead, it would be ordinary fife rails, right?

[ClipperFan]

31 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

1/32”.   That’s a small drop of paint.  If you’re any good at spilling paint.   
Now draw up a schematic where they’d be on the poop deck. 
Rob

Rob,

I will do my best. This time with sharper pencils too!

[ClipperFan]

38 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Well Campbell calls them bollards.  One thing different from Glory.  Duncan McLean said Staghound had patent ventilation bollards/bitts.  That means she had metal(brass) bitts.  Like this. 

Rob 

That brings up another fascinating topic. Ventilators were installed along the line of the planksheer and other places too. I'll have to find those references so we can locate those as well.

[rwiederrich]

4 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

So winches weren't installed on Stag Hound. That being the case, would those large angled wooden strakes in front of the masts be omitted? Instead, it would be ordinary fife rails, right?

Mike said he doesn’t believe they were on it…..but since McKay just started his clipper run and his preferences had not yet been fully  realized…..I think it is possible, since at this point McKay was simply copying known practice.  He had a strong opinion on the hull design, but I would guess not on all the deck furniture.  
You depicted large knees supporting the bitts…..that is not an issue.  I think the bitts were vertical, had the side and fore pin rail …..AND the side lever winch beneath. If it is on top, it interferes with the lines being belayed.  
 

Rob

[Rick310]

Do the fore bitts and fife rail support the main stay as on as on the Flying ?  If so, the bitts would have to be substantial and no wenches

Rick

[ClipperFan]

43 minutes ago, Rick310 said:

Do the fore bitts and fife rail support the main stay as on as on the Flying ?  If so, the bitts would have to be substantial and no wenches

Rick

Rick,

Either way, I don't think any "wenches" were allowed on clipper ships! 😉

[Rick310]

Agree!

Rick

[Rick310]

Have to love autocorrect 😁

Rick

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Mike said he doesn’t believe they were on it…..but since McKay just started his clipper run and his preferences had not yet been fully  realized…..I think it is possible, since at this point McKay was simply copying known practice.  He had a strong opinion on the hull design, but I would guess not on all the deck furniture.  
You depicted large knees supporting the bitts…..that is not an issue.  I think the bitts were vertical, had the side and fore pin rail …..AND the side lever winch beneath. If it is on top, it interferes with the lines being belayed.  
 

Rob

Rob,

Then Chappelle's plans have that item backwards. Both fore and main winches are illustrated as being positioned directly above the large knees. So, from your reference, are you saying that, opposite to Michael Mjelde's conclusion that hand winches were most likely not installed, you believe they were? I'm going to review other Boston Daily Atlas articles to see if Duncan McLean made mention of such labor assisting devices on later ships. I'll let you know what I find out.

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

"The New Clipper Packet Ship Staffordshire"

 Boston Daily Atlas July 21, 1851

 

excerpt:

"In addition to those already noticed, she has four bitts, ranged along the deck abaft the main rigging, on each side, and lever winches on each side abaft the fore and main rigging."

 

I reviewed Stag Hound, Flying Cloud, Flying Fish and Mastiff before finding this first mention of lever winches in the highly detailed description of Staffordshire. Perhaps, it's because of the unusual nature of this vessel being modified from two to three decks while on the stocks. I tend to agree with Michael Mjelde. McLean is more attentive to construction details than ornamentation. Chances are if Stag Hound had been equipped with lever winches, I believe he would have mentioned it.

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, Rick310 said:

Have to love autocorrect 😁

Rick

Rick,

That's why you always have to make use of Spel-Czech...

[rwiederrich]

10 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

"The New Clipper Packet Ship Staffordshire"

 Boston Daily Atlas July 21, 1851

 

excerpt:

"In addition to those already noticed, she has four bitts, ranged along the deck abaft the main rigging, on each side, and lever winches on each side abaft the fore and main rigging."

 

I reviewed Stag Hound, Flying Cloud, Flying Fish and Mastiff before finding this first mention of lever winches in the highly detailed description of Staffordshire. Perhaps, it's because of the unusual nature of this vessel being modified from two to three decks while on the stocks. I tend to agree with Michael Mjelde. McLean is more attentive to construction details than ornamentation. Chances are if Stag Hound had been equipped with lever winches, I believe he would have mentioned it.

Personally, I think the addition of a third deck while under construction,...truly a modification from her designed two decks, isn't enough reason to assume that was the sole reason she had lever winches.  We have to assume....because McKay was sucha stickler for having the most modern, technical advances built into his clippers...that he would overlook the seriously advantageous application of any kind of a winch to assist in working heavy loads aboard his vessels.  3 years later he clearly added many monkey winches to his largest design....Great Republic. 

It just makes no sense to me that McKay's ships were produced with no winches of any kind.  It flies in the face of logic.  Why would Staffordshire require them and no other vessel....just because somebody failed to mention them?

McKay truly cared about his workers...and I can assume, he also cared about those who would work his vessels...  Not to provide them the ease and advantage of a winch...appears idiotic.

 

The jury's still out on this....

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

13 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Ventilators were installed along the line of the planksheer and other places too. I'll have to find those references so we can locate those as well.

This would suggest....she had ventilators similar to those found on Flying fish.  Tucked within the stanchions of her bulwarks.  I've never been a fan of these kind of ventilators.  When the bulwark goes under green water, and the decks are awash....the ventilators get submerged and most likely are flooded with water....which, subsequently spills into living spaces.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

40 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Personally, I think the addition of a third deck while under construction,...truly a modification from her designed two decks, isn't enough reason to assume that was the sole reason she had lever winches.  We have to assume....because McKay was sucha stickler for having the most modern, technical advances built into his clippers...that he would overlook the seriously advantageous application of any kind of a winch to assist in working heavy loads aboard his vessels.  3 years later he clearly added many monkey winches to his largest design....Great Republic. 

It just makes no sense to me that McKay's ships were produced with no winches of any kind.  It flies in the face of logic.  Why would Staffordshire require them and no other vessel....just because somebody failed to mention them?

McKay truly cared about his workers...and I can assume, he also cared about those who would work his vessels...  Not to provide them the ease and advantage of a winch...appears idiotic.

 

The jury's still out on this....

 

Rob

Rob,

Your logic makes sense. The more McLean articles I read, the greater impression I get that the Boston Daily Atlas publicist concentrated his focus on the wooden structural elements and seaworthy elements of McKay's many vessels. Your logic makes total sense. Another thought that renforces this is the fact that captain Lauchlan McKay was able to restore his badly damaged, huge clipper Sovereign of the Seas while at sea, without cutting a single line. My vote is to add them.

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

This would suggest....she had ventilators similar to those found on Flying fish.  Tucked within the stanchions of her bulwarks.  I've never been a fan of these kind of ventilators.  When the bulwark goes under green water, and the decks are awash....the ventilators get submerged and most likely are flooded with water....which, subsequently spills into living spaces.

 

Rob

Rob,

Again, from a nautical engineering perspective that simply makes no sense. I'm going to research Emerson's patent ventilators to see how they would have prevented seawater or even rainwater from entering below decks.

[rwiederrich]

27 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Your logic makes sense. The more McLean articles I read, the greater impression I get that the Boston Daily Atlas publicist concentrated his focus on the wooden structural elements and seaworthy elements of McKay's many vessels. Your logic makes total sense. Another thought that renforces this is the fact that captain Lauchlan McKay was able to restore his badly damaged, huge clipper Sovereign of the Seas while at sea, without cutting a single line. My vote is to add them.

I don't mean to stand boldly in the face of those who are more experienced than myself on such matters, but history shows us that McKay was terribly dedicated to his workers and from that it is not a far stretch to gather that, that  dedication extended to those who would use/sail his creations.   As clearly as you have pointed out the failure of the most competent replicators, to recognize the *secret* of McKay's genius   ..his now famous... Naval Hood.  It is not a far stretch to see that these simple winches must have been omitted out of the same neglect.

 

How could they have missed it....was your battle cry.  I believe the same can be said about these lever winches.   They are extremely plausible.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

59 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Again, from a nautical engineering perspective that simply makes no sense. I'm going to research Emerson's patent ventilators to see how they would have prevented seawater or even rainwater from entering below decks.

 

[ClipperFan]

18 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

 

October 10, 1848 US patent 5842A granted to Emerson for his new ventilation system. Today, we'd refer to this as an air exchanger:

 

https://patents.google.com/patent/US5842

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

 

@rwiederrich as part of my research to locate the elusive Stag Hound drawing described by Cornelius McKay I emailed RevolutionarySpaces.org who apparently now run the old Boston Marine Museum collection. Lori replied and confirmed they're still in posession of the rare model! More exciting news. She sent me a copy of the full Cornelius McKay letter to captain Arthur H Clark. She included a couple images of the hull model. While it's beautiful it's not too helpful. She also sent a rare Chinese export painting of Staghound. Such works of art involved a pre-painted background. Ship's captains would select the one that they liked best. The Chinese artist would then paint the vessel in the foreground. It would then occupy a place of prominence. Most likely it would be in the captain's cabin or stateroom aboard ship. That would mean this painting at some point resided in Staghound herself. I've asked for costs associated to get a nice print of this work.

I'm now trying to see if it's possible to get the model out of storage and take useful pictures of it. In addition, I've asked Lori if she has any idea where the accompanying drawing might be found. I'll keep you posted on my progress.

One salient point I discovered is in the handwritten notes. A single line: "mainmast from deck to truck 166."

Since all main mast spars total 210 feet (including 9-foot pole) tells me the main mast is sunk 44 feet below the main deck. Subtracting that same 44-foot figure from a foremast of 190 feet (including 7-foot pole) results in 146 feet and using the same formula for the mizzen results in 129 (including 6-foot pole). We also know that this countersinking only affects lower masts, as the rest of the dimensions are untouched. So, an 88-foot mainmast is 44 feet above deck, an 82-foot foremast is 38 feet above deck and a 78-foot mizzenmast is 34 feet above deck.  

Edited August 1 by ClipperFan
additional information

[rwiederrich]

7 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Again, from a nautical engineering perspective that simply makes no sense. I'm going to research Emerson's patent ventilators to see how they would have prevented seawater or even rainwater from entering below decks.

One minute I’m making great sense, then the next minute I’m making no sense.  I’m not talking about the ventilators you referenced, but the ones atop the plank sheet, between the bulwark stanchions.   These guys can become submerged in heavy seas. 
Here’s some examples from Campbell and Rick’s Flying Fish. 

[rwiederrich]

Wonderful documentation… Rich.  Great job!

 

Rob