Talos

They're completely unconnected. The quarter galleries are a deck below, on the gun deck, with a fairing on top that extends about halfway up the spar deck bulwarks. United State's were double-level, but I don't think they penetrated the spar deck bulkwarks. The WCs on the quarterdeck aren't structural parts, they're just scabbed onto the inside of the side timbers. Basically like sitting a pair of porta potties on the deck and wedged into the corners of the quarterdeck. Chapelle has other plans that show them, mostly in smaller sloops and brigs. Similarly, and this isn't in Chapelle, but HMS Guerriere (the captured French/British frigate, not the US-built replacement) had a pair of non-structural but permanent WCs installed at the front of her gun deck, between the bridle and the first gunport (which I realize frolick posted a year ago). Looking up that post, there's a couple good shots of a gundeck roundhouse in the bow of United States that should help with you picturing it on her quarterdeck. Just imagine something like this, but curved and faired-in. http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/6470-martingale-dolphin-stricker-uss-united-states-44/?p=191584

Her sister ship, Gorch Foch II (a replacement for the original Gorch Foch which was the first of Eagle's class in Germany, which was taken as Russian war reperations and wasn't brought back to Germany until the early 2000s but is in pretty rough shape) is still in use in the German Navy as a sail training ship. The Portuguese and the Romanians also operate sisters of the class, the Sagres III and the Mircea respectively. It would be neat to see as many of those together as possible for that anniversary.

Interesting accounts. Bainbridge was actually a brig, sister ship to the unlucky Somers. Both had excessive rigs and both went down at sea (Bainbridge in 1863). On the other, that same Vincennes was the flagship of the US Exploring Expedition under then-Lieutenant Wilkes (the same guy who did the Trent Affair in the Civil War) in the 1840s. In this captain's case, it's doubly unlucky, since the boat howitzers were designed with breeching rope originally, but it was removed from the final design because the recoil wasn't enough to really need them. Might have saved this one's life.

The Eckford and Grice designs are in the post I did above, for those who aren't familiar with them. They are the second and third respectively in the Chapelle pic. I mentioned it in the other thread, but Eckford's design really reminds me of his schooner Grampus too (and the merchant ship you pointed out too in another book, frolick). It's the head especially, very similar style. I need to redraw those two, and Floyd's big sloop, and see how they look with rig and all. Looking at Grice's again, I think it's the last sloop design to have a huge amount of drag to the keel like the old War of 1812 sloops and up to the Erie rebuild (first sloop from the top in the pic in my last post). Even when they went back to smaller dimensions with the Dale and the other 3rd-class sloops, they stuck with a more even keel.

Good scans. JA is definitely one of the Humphreys' boats like that book and Chapelle both state, built on the lines of Vandalia. I'm reposting the quick comparison I threw together of that period in sloop designs from Chapelle so you can see more detail in the draught. The JA/Vandalia's design is fifth from the top. You can always tell the three designs apart by the stern. Humphreys' had a classic stern with quarter galleries, Doughty had a round stern with quarter galleries, and Barker had just a simple round stern (the latter two are sixth and seventh from the top respectively). In an interesting comment to the text in your scan, Chapelle asserts that Boston and Vincennes might have been built to the Barker draught, since the two of them are listed as having a slightly narrower beam that matches Barker's designed beam. I'm almost finished my redrawing of the Barker design, just needs the foremast and staysails put in.

I have the full-size image opened up huge on my monitor and my face about six inches from it and three of the flags look solid-colored so I can't tell what they are (black and white and all that...). The last has a vertical stripe. It's either T or one of the number flags. It is an American-flagged ship though, she has the stars and stripes flying back at the stern.

Poking around, I haven't been able to ID it yet, but there are some interesting ships in the full shot too. Just look at the yards on the ship to the right, angled to fit. Source: http://www.shorpy.com/node/12938

Reminds me rather of a strangely-distorted version of the sterns the improved 44s built during the war got (Java class). Constitution had one as late as 1874, as this picture Marcus posted in the Constitution stern thread shows. Not exactly the same, but the ports remind me of it.The black and white version of the painting there does have a horizontal line where the overhang begins that's missing entirely from the clearer colored one. Did United States get one later like Constitution did or could he have used any of the other frigates as an inspiration? (Do note the quarter galleries are still missing in the picture)

It's been driving me crazy, I've been trying to find a specific source I saw about the Dale-class 3rd-class sloops Preble was a member of. I wanted to give a little background to the Dales though. They were small, trying to do too much on the tonnage and mounted medium 24-pounders initially. Later on they recieved small 32-pounders (27 cwt) to replace them. Several of the class existed well towards the end of the 19th century and there's a few good pictures of them. The drawing here is based on Chapelle's reproduction of the class draught. I've been piecing together the sail plan from the spar dimensions for Yorktown, it's still a work in progress. The source I've been yanking out my hair to find is a report from Commodore Thomas Ap Catesby Jones to Congress informing them of what was going on in his Pacific Squadron. He complained about not having a single shell-firing gun and how most of the cannons on his ships were old (I think only one of his sloops only had the newer percussion locks). He had two Dales under his command, the name ship and the Yorktown. He said they sailed well and were weatherly and how that was a good thing....because they were horrible in every other respect. He compared their strength very unfavorably to the small British sloops and brigs on the west coast and commented that they were especially bad for Pacific use because they could only barely wedge in 4 months worth of supplies and a proper patrol in the region took closer to six. I'm going to keep looking for it and when I find the report, I'll post a transcript of it. It's up on Google Books somewhere.

I'd love to get my hands on details for those (up to draughts) to redraw them and modify them to illustrate those variations. They sound fascinating. Currently working on redrawing HMS Macedonian.

This is all Winfield has on Lexington. Silverstone doesn't have anything after her capture, just details on her service life before that. Not sure if she was ever taken into RN service. Lexington (brig Wild Duck), 14 x 4pdrs. Taken 20.9.1777 by Alert.

I don't have any specific answers for Lexington, but the hull style on the left, without the navy head and with the poop deck really reminds me of the schooner Marblehead on a larger scale.

I was trying to track down the provenance of the model, all I was able to find was an auction listing for it from a couple years ago. I agree with Wayne and think it's much more modern than contemporary. https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/20653622_quality-model-of-the-frigate-boston

Thanks, Charlie. I was waiting to do the larger plans like most of the frigates and all the ships of the line, because they were spread across two pages. Last month I got a cheap, old copy of the book to take apart. Because of the discussion here, I finally got around to doing it, should start working on a frigate drawing soon, probably the base Santee. Speaking of the Constellation, this makes me want to see how she looks wth a second deck like Macedonian had originally. Twelve feet longer (a foot longer than the 44s), she should be able to carry the armament of a 36-gun frigate well. Hmm....must draw. @Wayne: Nice. Thanks for that. Is there any mention of Royal Sovereign's plans in there? Chapelle mentions him having a copy of that draught too.

Ah, alright, thanks frolick. I wasn't sure what state Columbia had been left in. I presume she was pretty much boarded over and sealed up for the ten years until launching? And yeah, I was thinking about the quarter galleries when I wrote that. Sorry, really need to not post that early in the morning, I'm not a morning person! I wasn't thinking of the "balcony", which was being removed from many ships at the time anyway. I believe Victory had her's off in a refit well before Trafalger. @Charlie: Any US frigate that doesn't start with Con- doesn't get any love at all. Not just the Potomac/Brandywines (which I love for the round stern, it really stands out. Potomac excepted, of course), but the wartime Java-class that was mentioned in another thread. Also the final pair, Santee and Sabine, which were the only US 44s outside of the rebuilt Congress to have any real length changes, both being stretched 15 feet during construction. Speaking of those two, whenever I get around to redrawing the draught in Chapelle's book of Santee, I want to do a version replicating Sabine as well, which had the original rake to her stem and stern that the older ships had (Santee's were both reduced when she was constructed, while Sabine's were the same as the oddball St Lawrence's). Chapelle mentioned a host of coversion proposals I'd like to do side views of, including additional stretches and cutting them down into huge corvettes. I also had in mind seeing what they would look converted into steamers. Anyone got any more information on proposals for those two? Especially any additional conversions I didn't touch on.

I have that monograph, it’s a really excellent one. There’s a section devoted in the beginning of it devoted to that. As I recall, he had the draught of a similar-size East Indiaman from the same area and another larger one. The gallery is pretty large. I wonder if some of that is the legacy of the larger ship he was working off of. Even if is that size, would they have gone to the expense and time to reduce or remove it during her refit? Would JPJ’s ego have allowed it? With Columbia, that’s pretty early in her construction. I’m not sure what percentage she was at in 1827 and how she was suspended at until her completion in the 1830s. I wonder if he meant the rake of the bow. We know this was variable, with Santee having much reduced stem and stern post rake.

You're right, I didn't specify that Warren was finished. She was burned though and never captured. I doubt her lines were ever taken off. I wouldn't be surprised if Providence had her lines taken off when she was surveyed. I'll keep poking aroun NMM, that's probably the best place to start. With Columbia it's less that things weren't regimented and more that she was comissioned over a decade after the earlier ships in her class and Raritan was comissioned in the 1840s. Detail style changes in that time period, for instance Raritan has a fully-enclosed, redesigned bow compared to Brandywine. St Lawrence differed in details and Sabine/Santee were stretched before completion. With John Adams make sure it's Humphreys' design with the transom and quarter galleries. Doughty had a round stern and galleries, while Barker just had a plain round stern. Boston was coppered in Halifax after she was captured in 1780, if she ever had her lines taken off that would be the most likely time.

I was poking around NMM earlier today looking for Providence, but didn't find anything yet in the short time I looked. Of those ones listed, from Rif Winfield's book: Providence kept her name, surveyed in 1780 and sold in 1784. Raleigh kept her name, sold in 1783. Confederacy was renamed Confederate, purchased in 1781, sold the next year without being comissioned. Trumbull kept her name, wasn't taken into service by the RN. Boston was renamed Charlestown by the British, sold in 1783. Delaware kept her name, sold in 1783. Nothing on Lexington after her capture in Winfield, but Silverstone lists her crew as retaking her at sea.

Interesting thread! I’ll add a bit that I’ve noticed poking around in Chapelle and some other sources. Alliance – Chapelle lists her as little-known and matching most closely to Confederacy. She’s three feet shorter and half a foot narrower beam. Warren – Chapelle says that she was to be a Randolph class, but the plans never made it in time and she was built to a local design. Because she was burned before capture, the RN never took her lines off either and there probably aren’t plans that survived. Don’t have anything on Trumbull, she wasn’t taken into RN service, but Providence was surveyed in 1780, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there are plans for her around. Boston – The lines in Chapelle are for the 1748 ship. Unlike Cyane, these aren’t mislabeled and they match the decoration and design of a ship from that period. Rif Winfield has her in his British Warships in the Age of Sail – 1714-1792. He states she was a lengthened 1745 Establishment 6th rate, built as HMS America. Moved to the UK in 1750, renamed Boston in 1756, and sold the next year. John Adams – With the rebuild, remember that there are three designs used for those sloops. Chapelle lists John Adams as being on the same design as Vandalia, which he asserts was built to Humphries’ draught. I was researching them for my US sloops thread over in the plans subforum. I’m linking two things I did in that thread. In the Excel spreadsheet, the stuff on the left is based on Chapelle’s work, the right column is Paul Silverstone’s The Sailing Navy 1775-1854. The other is a comparison of the different sloop designs of the period, the three 24-gun sloops are the 5th, 6th, and 7th from the top. http://i.imgur.com/0ClOD6Y.jpg http://i.imgur.com/IYHOPxs.jpg Columbia – We have the base draught of the Brandywine/Potomac-class frigate, a detailed drawing of her round stern timbers, and Raritan, commissioned in the 1840s. Decoration details between the two differ due to the tastes of the times, but we can extrapolate a 1830s Columbia from them, the basic lines are still the same. Potomac was built with a conventional transom. Pennsylvania – Chapelle states Humphreys had plans for Santisima Trinidad and Collingwood’s Royal Sovereign. He mentions that the initial design for Pennsylvania’s original design had a small beakhead bulkhead like those two older ships, while the final design had a round bow. I presume that the Lafayette, if it was a predecessor to Pennsylvania/based on Trinidad, would have that detail too. Philadelphia – I recall the draught for Philly in Chapelle is based on a later redrawing of the original draught with anachronistic War of 1812-style details. There’s another draught of her in Naval Documents related to the United States Wars with the Barbary Powers that tripp mentioned above, along with other ships of the period like the second Boston.

Oh, my giddy aunt. This will be fun to go through! I know what I'm doing this evening now.

First off, excellent thread. I just had a great time reading through it. With the gallery profile on the left, i wonder how much of the angle on the quarters is perspective though. The center is pretty much a simple arc, but I don't know if the outboard portions rise as much as your sketch in post #71.