ClipperFan

Rob, Specific locations of her focstle companions aren't mentioned for Stag Hound. But, by referencing that water closets were in the after wings of the focstle, that's exactly the same description Mclean used for Flying Fish. And in that write up, he did state that companions were in the wings of the focstle with the water closets before them. Since we're working with such sparse details, I'm reluctant to stray from the little details we have to work with. As for using just a couple windows in a 30 foot span, that just seems to leave a lot of walled in area which would limit lighting sources down below. I will try and sketch this area at 1:96th scale to see how it looks.

@Rick310 An update on your inquiry about seeing Cornelius McKay's stunning extreme clipper Stag Hound hull model in person. Lori told me their warehouse isn't open to the general public. No surprise. She did say there might be plans to display the artifact sometime next year. I reminded her that December 7th, 2025 will be the 175th Anniversary of the launch of Stag Hound and that wouldn't it be nice if all Boston and Massachusetts museums could do a coordinated retrospective on the amazing legacy of Donald McKay? She agreed to pass on my suggestion to the Exhibit Committer. In a separate communication, author Michael Mjelde answered me with two simple words: "I concur." I was told by Lori to stay in touch for further developments.

Rob I thought I already shared this. It's my preliminary focstle bulkhead sketch. At both ends are the companions. They consist of dual, single opening doors. Push one and the other opens too. Both fold flat inward. Companions are 30" wide x 4' high. Focstle bulkhead is 30' long x 5' high. As I envision it, the commpanions project out 2' and are flush with focstle deck above. Dual focstle ladders mount just inside each companion. The focstle deck creates an overhang to protect windows. Each window alternates with ornate cabinet style molded areas. In between these, there are faux pillars to complete the impression carried forth in the small portico, tying the ship together thematically. I see widows protected with similar wooden venetian-style slats like those seen on skylights to protect against bad weather conditions. As I said, this is preliminary, a work in progress. It may be a bit overkill but here's my reasoning. Donald McKay intentionally built the largest merchant vessel in the world. He was definitely making a statement that Boston had arrived as a strong competitor to the New York shipyards. Why not make her ornate as well???

Rob, That's a beautiful tea clipper Thermopylae model. If you feel this is more authentic, that can be done. It's reminiscent of the Glory of the Seas stern coach house aft companion. Meanwhile, how do you feel about the rest of my conceptual focsle bulkhead? Is it too ornate? Do you agree or disagree with this or any type of windows? If there's no windows, how else would light be provided? Prisms would make sense but I don't know how much light they would provide. Is the idea of a focsle skylight realistic or too extreme?

@Rick310 About the only contemporary artist I've seen who has accurately captured McKay's fascinating clippers has been the British artist Samuel Walters. His Glory of the Seas clearly depicts her gilded, carved navel hood, cutwater and figurehead accurately. I still get great inspiration from Buttersworth's gorgeous works but don't rely on them for modeling accuracy. FYI: in our research of McKay's initial clipper Stag Hound and her solid focstle bulkhead, I came across yet another misinterpretation of Duncan MacLean's words. Flying Fish the vessel you're constructing has about the most complete description of her low mounted focstle deck. Her main rail was a mere 4 & 1/2 feet with a 16" monkey rail above it, for combined bulwark height of 5 feet 10 inches. Here's where I believe current plans have gotten it wrong. In his particular listing of ship's accomodations, McLean often refers to apartments from aft to foreword. His description of the water closets (heads) says that they're before her companions, not aft. Knowing how McLean describes deck furniture from aft to fore, this says that the water closets were not on the main deck but below in the accomodations for use of one watch. Down there too would be the windlass because leaving it on deck is effectively a crawl space when you take into account deck beams. That means the front focstle bulkhead wouldn't have been open but a complete wall possibly with windows to allow light into the interior 7 & 1/2 feet below. This is how Rob and I are looking at the focstle bulkhead for Stag Hound. I am not suggesting you do anything to your current build. I'm just sharing this latest development to raise awareness.

Rob, It's my belief that even artists couldn't quite figure out how to capture the unique McKay bow. I was commenting on the fact that this painting's bow silhouette definitely displays a more dramatic prow then just a bare stem. If, as it appears likely that Buttersworth painted this vessel while she was at anchor in San Francisco, he would of necessity had to have been quite a distance away to capture the entire vessel. I love the beautiful inspiring works of Buttersworth but recognize he often makes mistakes, especially around the bows of McKay's clippers. Take the Sovereign of the Seas for example. It's a gorgeous piece of work. But his merman has a tail that goes impossibly across the bow.

@Rick310 Thanks for the compliment. These incredibly beautiful photos come singularly through the kind generosity of Lori Fidler, Associate Director of Collections, Old State House, Old South Meeting House, 310 Washington Street, Boston, MA 02108. This spectacular 173-year-old antique is in storage at their warehouse. Personally, I doubt that it's available to the general public to view but I sent her a request to see if it's a possibility. Perhaps a supervised visit could be arranged. I will let you know her response to this inquiry. Originally, she quoted me $40/hr for maybe a couple hours for two curators to take the artifact out of storage and take pictures for me. However, when she discovered that it wasn't in complex wrapping, she took these photos and waived the fee. Since I'm still attempting to get port broadside photo, head-on fore and aft photos too. The idea is to make best use of this truly unique connection to Donald McKay's visionary inaugural, extreme clipper Stag Hound which Cornelius McKay brilliantly named "the Pioneer craft of the California Clipper Fleet. I'm still trying to chase down the drawing which originally accompanied this remarkably crafted, sole surviving authentic Builder's model. I will also share the 1850 Chinese export painting that Lori kindly shared too. For $25 it's possible to get a copy without the watermark. She was kind enough to send me both low and high-res images for that modest fee. I have her contact info, if you want to message me.

@druxey you're quite welcome. These were all sent to me by a very generous lady at the Old State House Museum, Boston, MA. She also sent me the Chinese export painting of Stag Hound off Hunan Harbor.

Since I can't get enough of this awesome model, I've reoriented, cropped and organized them to improve their viewing.

Rob, You're welcome. I'm still trying to get my ideal fore, aft and broadside pics. This set may be the limit of what's achievable but we'll see. I'm still in awe of how beautifully finished this replica is. I'm not a wood veneer specialist but my best guess is the main lifts appear to be cherry separated by elm with flat black hull finish, possibly on an oak plaque.

While these images aren't very helpful towards our goals of reproducing the most accurate clipper Stag Hound replica, I feel they're still worth seeing. Here, probably for the first time since 1928, is Cornelius McKay's beautifully crafted clipper half hull model. Since he wrote that it was actually modeled while the ship herself was under construction, we know it was built in 1850. For an antique, nearly 174 year old sole surviving Builder's hull model, she has held up very well.

Rob, To answer your legitimate concerns, I first went to the McLean description of Glory of the Seas. What shocked me was that, contrary to expectations, he actually wrote that the focstle deck height was 6 feet! My first thought was "how did I miss this?" I'm glad that we finally, through a convoluted evaluation process, arrived at the correct conclusion. Unfortunately, it required you and Vlad to both do challenging tear downs to achieve the proper scale height. It goes back to the old carpenter's adge: "Measure twice, cut once." I agree with your concept Rob. Just as our "North Star" in the Glory of the Seas project was to create the most faithfully authentic replica, I'm just as fully committed to doing the same for our Stag Hound project. Unless there's documented proof to contradict McLean, I still believe in the historic accuracy of his descriptions. So, while my personal direction was to think of the deck height of the focstle as being at the monkey rail, that's not what McLean says. So, the height is at the main rail. That being so, this leads me to reverse my position and accept that fact. This would necessitate a solid focsle bulkhead, with dual entry port and starboard companions. It makes sense to protect a newly patented, most likely heavier complicated gearing windlass mechanism.

@Rick310 beautiful work on your built lower masts. I particulary appreciate your specific, detailed rendition of each material you used and how you crafted them for your modeling needs. I love the look of your hull. Your's is the closest profile to the gorgeous work of JE Buttersworth, specially commissioned by her owners to celebrate her remarkable firat place win in the Great Atlantic-Pacific Deep Sea Derby of 1852-53. Combined with her lofty rig, your Flying Fish is shaping up to be the finest ever seen!

@Richvee great advice! I've never heard of that approach before. You learn something new every day.

Rob, Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. It's always appreciated. Next, I'll rush to the foscle deck and profile. It all has to fit just as logically as the poop deck does.

Rob, A couple days late and not fully finished to my full standards (missing railings around portico and at least the fore end of the poop deck). But, this layout fits the bill enough for you to proceed. One small addition: another prism light above the rear heads. Since it's unlikely a porthole would be fit in, I figure something had to let in light. As for dimensions, it's a tight fit but 3' wide fits in neatly with all other specs which match up with a 32' great room sometimes also referred to as a salon. I suppose the heads could be made wider and possibly act as inset walls for the large stern double occupancy apartment fit for a family. Regardless, unless you're modeling apartments below, none of this pure speculation matters. Other revisions include a foot deep seating area on all four sides of the skylight. Since I used a 3" overhang, the indent is 9". As the base is 5' and length is 10' that brings inside house dimensions to 3 & 1/2' wide by 8 & 1/2' long. There ends up being exactly 8 equally divided glass sections, which like would have had wooden venetian blind type slats for weather protection, reinforced with brass rods. Both sides would be capable of being propped up and opened in warm weather as well. Further back, I scaled down the companion length to 5' with a 2 & 1/2' sliding top and 1' ends, making it 4 & 1/2' wide. That gives 3' space between the aft of the skylight and companion fore. Exhaust stove fit midway leaves 6 & 1/2' to companion entrance. The space in front of the companion is now 3'. Everything else just looks right now. Note: lines on the illustration are arrow straight. Bends are due to paper not being on a totally flat surface.

Rob, McLean was wrong. McKay's ships all had their focsle deck heights at the monkey rail height. Of that I'm now positive. In every description of a McKay focsle, there's plenty of room for off-duty crew. That's impossible unless the bulkhead height is at the monkey rails. Looking at Crothers' illustration, the "wcs" look overly small, probably not to scale. As far as pushing them back, why not set the focsle bulkhead wall just behind the foward hatch, instead of pushing it back. I need to sketch it out to envision spacing. The patented windlass also appears to be taller but more compact. Another reason the interior focsle deck height is about 6'. Somehow, I'm sure it all works out.

Rob, You're right about the added touch of class that mahogany adds to your skylight seating. It looks very elegant. Nicely done.

Rob, Other than the patented windlass, I'd say yes. In this example the windlass is under the focsle deck but outside fore bulkheads. With all the complex gears of Emerson-Walker patented windlass, I would think McKay would have wanted it enclosed. To leave room inside for crew, I would think a separate enclosed room inside of the focsle would be made. Your thoughts?

Rob, Believe it or not, Crothers' illustration proves part of my point exactly. Look at the lightly dotted line above the windlass beneath. Now notice the twin ladders? They both end at that dotted line, showing that both "wc's" are fully beneath the forecastle deck. Either that or those ladders end up in midair... From the illustration, while the wc's are actually outside the forecastle bulkheads, like you said, they are both fully underneath the forecastle deck, which was my point. So, it looks like we're both half right.... 😉 I lightened up the drawings to make this easier to see. Just like I suggested doors to inside of forecastle are both inside, adjacent to each "wc" too. I would place both ladders a little closer to "wc" walls to make entrance doors to forecastle a bit easier to access.

Rob, It's harder for me to concentrate right now. Somehow, I strained my neck and it's a tough distraction. From what I've read, where McLean refers to forecastle height being at the main rail, he's dead wrong. As you and Vlad learned on Glory of the Seas, that's too damn low. It has to be at monkey rail height. Then, like with Glory there would have been an 18" splashrail, with a 1' waterway type shelf at the base surrounding the forecastle with the same elegant curving point for belaying pins as seen on Glory. One difference I have with portrayal of waterclosets is their being outside of the forecastle. To me, being in the wings of the forecasle implies a flush bulkhead with the 3' wide waterclosets being fully under the forecastle deck. As I've read, the area under the forecastle was sleeping quarters for use of the off-watch crew. As I now see this there possibly was two separate entry doors just inside the wings of the waterclosets and bigger sliding doors for windlass maintenance. If entrance to the waterclosets were inside, then twin ladders could be mounted on the outer edges. Now, since the entire area is closed in, would there have been some windows of any type for light?

Rob That makes total sense. So, essentially her forecastle would be entirely enclosed. I would follow the bulkhead moulding style like we saw on Glory of the Seas. My only caveat would be, in case of a mechanical failure, would they have kept a windless hand crank mechanism as an emergency back up?

Rob, Michael Mjelde told me that, as each Captain took over their craft, they could and often did change the appearance of their ships. Mike once recounted a dizzyiing number of times that had the colors of her structures changed at the whim of each ship's new commander. I can look to verify McKay's use of rich hardwoods in his packets but I'm sure that he did from everything I've read.

Rob, A mahogany top makes perfect sense. Certainly in keeping with the concept of McKay wanting to make a profound statement with his launching the then largest merchant vessel in the world.

@Rick310 Cool book. I wonder if this is still a available? What simply amazes me is that while the hull's sheer and body plans may have been traced directly from McKay's own lines, critical components were entirely omitted. That, despite Duncan McLean's very specific descriptions of the seaworthy nature of these innovative rugged, nautical structures. I greatly admire the beauty of the Boucher models but they're still featuring a bare stem. The first model is from Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. The second is a twin at Addison Gallery, Phillip's Academy, Andover, MA. They look remarkably similar but their sail arrangements are different. In a way, Boucher Mfg. can't be faulted since, Donald McKay quite likely posthumously, pulled a Houdini on everyone with his unique bow construction.