42rocker

The box for the frames kit is ready to be shipped.
 
I needed 5 copies of the frames. Frames are drawn ½, Frames 28 to 31 and 37 are not drawn, they are identical to other frames. I need both sides, each frame is doubled front and rear, plus 1 copy for later assembly. I drawn 3 copies and I had 2 photocopies.
 
Next step to sand flush the parts and after prepare the keel and begin the assembly.
 
The picture with 2 planks is the additional wood quantity I had to add, I failed in my guessing for the preparation of the wood quantity. In fact I guessed it by eye, because it is too much difficult to calculate, and to try to guess it is much  faster.
 

What are the scales used to build models? Let's try some speculation.
 
For the french I saw 2 scales: 1/24 used to teach the construction of the ship or to teach rigging.
Also  Augustin PIC built one 74  at 1/24.
Many models are built at 1/48.
 
English ship models I know are built at 1/48 scale.
 
We know that 1/48 was use, I would say, for 2 reasons:
Build a model to present to the king for his acceptance for the construction of the real one at 1/1 scale.
1/48 scale represents the largest scale which ca be easily handle by one person.
 
There are surely other models built at different scales in Museums.
 
A standard scale would have a derivation from the english foot and would be a multiple of 12. It is also preferable to use one of these multiples because it will be easier to work with especially in ratio used like for reproduction: 150%, 200%, 300%, and other variations. I would not want to use strange combination because this makes it more difficult to calculate  bringing even fractions. Also, if I use a weird scale, it will be impossible to use the proportional divider: my common use being to work on 1/48 plans for ease to use ( a 4 feet long sheet) and double the lenghts at 1/24 with the proportional divider.
 
Let's try to guess what happened when they came with kit. (I do not know when, is this something new like 1970? I have no idea). Purely for money reasons, they created smaller scales. 
 
Is there a standard size to build? My answer is no and this is a kind of false affirmation.
 
In fact, the standard scale is the size that everyone is using for his own reason.
 
So there is no good or bad answer.
 

Redshirt, 
It is probably a nice interrogation to ask ourselves what it is the limit in the scale we can reach.
I did explore  few scales  and I am probably at the limit I can reach.
 
I remember vaguely to have seen about 30 years ago, in Montreal, a model  made to learn the rigging to the officers. The model was about 20 feet long.
At what scale I do not remember.

If you are building in 1/24, you might as well RC it

Hi Pierre,
 
I was keeping a log  but it was more for construction details, now it is just the build log on MSW.
On MSW 1.0 we saw another 74 at 1/24 and weight was 130 pounds. It was difficult to move it upstair. The guys were strong men.
Bigger door, bigger home, bigger workshop, bigger ship; it took years to be installed as now. There are a lot of wires and some heavy machinery. The most difficult to bring in was the Hardinge lathe, quite heavy. With that lathe, over 1 ton, I understood what turning without vibrations means. I am satisfied with the installation and it' s versatility. Having the medium tools on wheels is a big plus. Having the tool at the right place at the right time can save a lot of time and a lot of walking.
 
There could be another possibility  a 74 at 1/12 but made in 3,4, ,5,  or 6 parts slices, may be I should ask Karl to come to help me.

Preparation of the frames for the KIT.


 
I have to draw the other half of the plans.

Drawing is made by hand, it is easier to draw a circle than a straight line and all the frames are only curves


 
About 2/3 of the blanks are cut, a lot of wood is use and a lot of wood is thrown in the garbage, up to now 1 ½  trash can.


 

I've got full size plans for a boat, kayak and stand up paddle board here at up to 18 feet x 5 feet Gaetan. If I can get that size printed in Turkey then I'm sure you could get them in Canada.  

Hi Peter,
 
What a nice offer and a nice project you have. I have no abilities with Autocad. Even If I bought  plans from Lemineur I draw some frames parts.
 
I saw pictures from 1949 of this ship.
I am now using Lemineur drawings enlarged  at 300%.
 
There are many reasons if  I still want to build a forth 74 according to Boudriot drawings. I like his artistic vision. 1775-1780 is a period, where the shape of the 74  was very nice.
 
To use your plans the measures should be identical to Boudriot' 74. I do not know enough about this ship.
I also saw other models  photos by Lemineur. For me, to be able to build a model, it is in part a love story between me and the model. If there is no attraction, there is no interest to build it.  I will go with Minerve, a nice figurehead and stern decorations  came to be simplified in comparison  of  the other extremity like Le Soleil royal.
 
I could suggest some additions to the plans you are drawing. When you draw, you think like an architect and you do not want to repeat identical parts. For this reason, and to save few paper sheets, Lemineur  has draw only 1 frame side.
 
From the perspective of a model ship builder, it is not very helpfull.
What I would like from a set of plans, is a complete set of frames.
 
How many copies do you think I have to do if I want to be able to build a complete frame : left and right side, double thickness, each thickness having his own parts. I did 2 copies and I draw half side of the 62 frames. I am actually cutting the drawings in parts.
 
 

I will try to clarify what I mean:
 
Bigger is easier in the way that it is easier to handle a part  with your hand instead of only 2 fingers.
Easier in the way that you have more control of your movement.
The more control you will have, the greater the possibilities to produce  a more accurate part.
You can create smaller parts with great accuracy but you will need a greater concentration.
 
At smaller scale you have to omit parts because many parts would be too small to handle properly.
 
To understand more easily how a part is made it is easier to do it at a bigger scale and also you will understand better because you will see the components more easily.
 
Probably I will understand better the intricacy of the construction if I do it at a bigger scale  which will allow to see more parts.
 
 

Christian, the best advice I could give you go 1/32 (or 1/36).
As we all know: bigger is better and we should not forget to add bigger is easier.
Probably also 1 one of the brakes which can stop you is to say: I do not have room to store it.
I did not have room to store  one 1/24, and now I store two  1/24.

The limit is probably the width of the printer.
There is also another limit, the size of the door. A 74 guns pass through the door but if we add masting, height become s a problem. The only way to overcome this problem being to have removable masts
Does distortion for model-making purposes may become a factor in extremely large sizes. I faced that problem with my last build. Framing could have been a bit bigger, plus adding with other considerations such as humidity, the size of the ship move. In this way, I could not fit all the parts made exactly as ''plans'' are drawn, often parts must be adjusted. In this instance the construction of the model are the real lengths even if the guide are the plans. The bigger the scale the bigger the a compensation must be applied the length. The easiest to observe is the width which at 1/24 can easily change from 1/2 inch.
In fact I guess that it is possible to plot drawings more precise than the real thing in wood.
Metal would not be better, the length of a  wire cable  transporting electricity has a sag variation of many feet on a long distance
PRECISION is important for many assembly, by example if  we drill a hole smaller than the bar, problems will follow.
In wood assembly,  greater tolerances are acceptable.
Different scales, different uses, different tolerances.
 
I  had the plan of HMS pegasus enlarged at 1/12 but the difference of the width of the frames was not that big.
Frame size Pegasus 1/12 approximately the same size as a 74 guns at 1/24.  Like this

Well I had the drawings of Otte Blom (the 7P) printed on an architect paper printer.
They are in size, when printed 1 to 1, bigger than A0 (how to convert to feet???).
So yes these printers exist and the nice thing about these printers (in fact they are called plotters here) are for  what we call "work drawings" the paper does not shrink or expand during printing or afterwards.They are measure and scale fixed, so no distortion.
Maybe an idea?
 
Rgds Hans.

Hi Sailor,
this is a very good question, of course I will not, but 
I had plans enlarged from 1/72 to 1/24. giving sheets of 3 feet by 9 feet at around $15/ sheet
Probably the maximum I could go would be restricted by paper size for frames, in this case 3 feet, 
printer larger than 3 feet probably exists?
 
Size of the apartment is also a limitation. I like to move around the model and the model must move 360 degrees around, 
so physical limitation would be around 10 feet.
At 10 feet May be I could do a frigate... may be next time

Very well drawn, I tried the assembly and everything interlocks together.

Hello,
A "talonnier" (heel-piece ?) is a filler piece to avoid the use of large wood. It is a supplementary piece which has no fixed dimensions, it serves only to fill the middle of the floor timbers whose original part lacks wood.
The one drawn by JB is not entirely accurate, it does not correspond to the time data.
Here are, for example, those used on the 24 prd frigate L'Egyptienne:

Hello,
Jean Boudriot reversed some pieces in the installation of the couples on the drawing published by GB.
The correct configuration is as follows:

Figure 49 is a badly drawn.
 

 
Pawel

Tadheus, 
 
I am not saying my representation is good or wrong.
I tried only  to reproduce  Boudriot’s drawing.
1 reason it is difficult to understand is because the drawings  use a piece called talonnier which is in the same family as talon, heel in english.
There is  text explaining the talonnier but drawings show it partially.
 
If you can provide better drawings to explain, please do so.

Gaetan, in my opinion this should be done so. Quite well it is drawn in the plans "L'Artesien" , "Commerce de Marseille". Similarly, in my model, "La Salamandre."  But I may be wrong....
 
 

 

 

 
 
Pawel

The smaller the scale, the less details  is likely to be seen on a model ship.
Here is an example:
 
How the frames sit on the keel. Boudriot give an extensive description but  How the heels fit under the frame is not so clear. It is difficult to see exactly how it is done.
So I tried to manufacture 1 set of frames.
You can see the result of this try.

Redshirt, the Fleuron, 7 feet is already stored, it was very easy.
The first one, 8 feet was more difficult, it took me 2 years to find a place.
 
In fact, when there is no place, you have to clear and build a place.

An arsenal is a place where we build and arm the warships. It's also in this place where the first models that represented the vessels under construction were realized. These models have given the term "arsenal model" The term is indeed equivalent to "admiraly models".   GD

THE KEY TO USE CHERRY WOOD
 
‘’My mystery partner’’ will be starting  a model of a 74 guns as soon he finishes his actual model.  He wants to know if  cherry wood could be a good wood choice for his next build? He asked to see a picture of the darkest wood avaialable. Why not show everybody the answer and  at the same time, try to demistify if this wood could  be use in a model ship construction perspective.
For  3 different batches of cherry wood that I saw, the wood grain pattern was different each time. I have been working few years up to now and if I take time to regroup the observations I made during this period, I can observe  4 main wood grain pattern for this specific wood:
 
1- Sap wood is white and heartwood is somekind of  different brown.  Time  darkens and embellish condiderably the color.
 
2- By comparison, which is often the best way to learn a subject, pear wood has no grain pattern. This gives the wood an adavantage for the model maker enthousiast.  All the planks are identical for the wood grain. He does not need to select any plank,  all the planks have the same  identical  grain pattern. From the point of view, workability pear wood and cherry wood  are similar even if pear wood  has a slightly higher density. Finally, for the sandability, both are identical.
 
Cherry wood has  a grain pattern. This pattern is different on the top and on the side of the plank. The pattern is partially governed by the annual year growth . Ideally if the rings were smaller, cherry wood could be the ideal wood to use for us, modeler.
 
When you look at a plank from side or top the pattern can be completely different, This pattern  comes back often and it is pretty nice to see but on 1 side only.
 
3- The worst grain pattern we can find is when when the growth lines come perpendiculary to the lenght of the plank. This kind is the less desirable to use. The worst  mistake I could do is to use this pattern for the planking.
 
Ideally by decreasing   the scale of a model, we should also decrease the wood pattern of the grain. For the best results, we should find a wood grain which looks exactly like oak but at a much smaller scale. Does this perfect wood exist? I do not know.  One of the nicest wood I have seen for the planking is apple wood, yet another fruit wood, our best friend.
 
4- Each wood as his own advantages. Oak has a grain pattern which goes in the same way as the plank goes. Occasionally, a cherry wood plank will have the grain perpendicular to the lenght of the plank. This is exactly this kind of situation which must be avoid. If someone succeeds to avoid this trap, it should be possible to get a good result  simply by categorising the wood, not as a selling perspective classification as on the market, but as a perspective of use in model ship realisation.
 
For the frame,  the less attractive wood grain of the batch can be use and the best looking grain is kept for the planking. 

Well let's try to be concise:
 
Arsenal modeling is a discipline of naval modeling, the oldest and most demanding.   This activity consists of replicating to scale down the design and construction of old ships. This reproduction must be as faithful as possible in the making of the parts which constitute the framework, the arrangements of the decks, the equipment and the decoration of the original ship. The construction of the masts, the rigging and the sails are not imperative, it is a question of personal preferences.   In France this activity was practiced in the arsenals of the king since the XVIIth century, Jean Boudriot "awakened" this practice in the Seventies and the name has remained and is still used today.   The different parts must be perfectly conform to the original parts, their assembly also. Bolts, nails and treenails should be reproduced as far as possible. If a keel has four parts, these four parts must be represented and assembled as true with scarph, bold et nails.   No facility, modern materials or artifacts of manufacture are allowed in the traditional arsenal modeling unlike some models makers who make superb models but out of established conventions (absence of framework, sculpture in series (even metal), artillery in resin , etc.). For the enthusiasts who are often very cultured on the subject, these models are not part of the true model of arsenal.   The arsenal models are based on monographs or personal studies which are the representation of the real ships, they are not plans of model. These books are the result of advanced knowledge of the naval architecture in general and the ship concerned in particular (era, builder, place of construction, peculiarities, etc.). It is often a long-term process that requires a great deal of research.   Many regard it as a noble activity, close to art by the skill he asks.   GD   I do not know if the automatic translation will reflect the meaning of my talking...

The 74 guns was first published in 1973.
This means there are only 6 years remaining to do an update for this 50th birthday of edition.
 
Karl,
 
The primary reason why I choose a model ship to build is always the same. I must find  beauty in the model.