Captain Al

I've got my model here at the computer and comparing your lower works to mine. Since I already have beams installed and these holding platforms there is no way I can put in any kind of half deck. Unless I did it with narrow strips which I could insert sideways through the frames and under the platform. This also brought to mind the question of ballast. What was used as ballast and where did it go? More likely for my build would be those compartments on the holding platform level. Until I put down the next deck it will still be possible to build and insert them. I'm just wondering if I want to add what would probably be weeks of work to do this or just move along with the kit as is.

Hey Mike, hang in there.  Like Bindy just said above, its a great feeling when you do something right and its really cool to look at.  If you haven't already, take a look at the topic "fixing mistakes" (or something just like that) which not only gives some great tips and tricks to actually remedying mistakes but also shows that even the top modelers make boo boos; and some pretty significant ones.  I share your attitude.  This is fun and we're only first timers.  Besides, I think both of us have chosen to start at the top.  These two versions of Bounty are not really for beginners.  But I concluded that with enough time, patience, research and mistakes I will come out with the pretty decent (if not perfect) model and maybe it'll be all down hill from there. 
 
Now, here's a question.  I came back here to your build to take a look at the stairwell openings you mentioned were framed.  I am definitely going to do the same.  Funny how a kit can be so detailed in one area and then leave another untouched.  Anyway, in looking at your pictures (which, btw make me say you are doing a great job so far) I see that your Bounty has two compartments on the lower deck level (my kit calls this level the holding platform) fore and aft of the holding well.  Each of these has doors which will be clearly visible from the open hull.  My kit does not have these compartments.  I only had parts to fab the holding well.  It has seemed to me that the real Bounty would have had more structure down there and that your's is more authentic.  So I am thinking now about adding those (it will take some scratch building but I have the materials) to my lower deck.  Do you know if in fact Bounty had these?  I am going to look on other builds and do some googling.  I need to decide on this before I glue on my second deck (which my kit calls the lower deck) which I thought I might do today or tomorrow.  See, this for me is the fun of it all....making decisions and devising ways of doing the construction.
 
Another question.  Regarding constructing the grates.  Did you cut all the cross pieces one by one by hand?  I did.  The instructions said to build it from full pieces and then "trim" it to the indicated sizes needed.  I thought it easier to measure, mark and clip these pieces to size before putting the waffle together.  It worked but it was time consuming and, I found out, I couldn't make all these cuts precisely the same.....pretty hard to do when .1 mm makes a difference.  If they were all perfect it would make the gluing of the frame around it much tighter.  I am going to try a new way when I do the grates for the main deck.  I'm going to bundle all the pieces of each size -- maybe tape them tightly together -- and then cut them as one on my Dremel scroll saw.  I'm just curious if there is a better way than that.

Mike, looks like you're making good progress and approaching each step with proper caution. I am working on a similar build (AL's Bounty) and have reached the point of installing the second deck. In the process of planking it I noticed that there is a square cutout just aft of the foremast. This cutout sits directly on top of a beam. It is for the windlass stanchion which (in my model) extends through the main deck and into this cutout on the second deck and rests on the beam. Problem though is that the pictures that come with the instructions do not show this cutout, leading me to think that the stanchion should just rest on the deck. But why then the cutout in the false deck? Looking at the plans (if I read them correctly) that is what they would have me do. Looks like the stanchion sits on the deck and does not insert into the planking, false deck and sit on the beam. Since I have already cutout the planking and have the hole in the deck I began to worry that the stanchion would sit too low and throw off the alignment of the pawl into the windlass. I thought I might fill the hole. But after measuring the length of the stanchion and the position of the pawl I have come to the conclusion that the cutout is proper and should be there (it will certainly add strength to the fixing of the stanchion) and that it is AL's problem in not updating their pictures and plans to include it (my kit is probably 10 years old). Now, in looking at your main deck I see that your's does not have a cutout just aft of the foremast for this stanchion. Kits are different, but I believe for authenticity they would both have the windlass in the same place. What is in store for your windlass/stanchion? Will it just sit atop the main deck?
 
I am facing a lot of fairing issues and the process of planking the hull is keeping me up at night. But I'm determined which is half the battle. I will post some more pics on my build log soon. Meanwhile, I hope I haven't injected an unneeded issue into your thinking. Keep up the good work.

Mikr, I also wonder about the sufficiency of the wood provided, so I am careful to take a good inventory before I start using any particular type and size.  I've gone through the Parts List and categorized each as to how many pieces and lengths will be needed for each part or process.  Its a painstaking job but it gives me confidence to use the wood as needed and familiarizes me with what is coming up.  I have found that so far AL seems to provide more than enough.  I can't of course speak for your kit.  I take a very conservative approach to using it up anyway.  For example, AL's instructions and parts list show it takes 26 pieces of .6 x 5mm Ramin to complete the lower deck.  They mean 26 pieces which are 700 mm in length.  But I've laid out a planking scheme which makes use of smaller runs (eg 170 mm, 3 times rather than a full 510 mm run) offset so the breaks are staggered, and along with the holes for grates and ladders I believe I will only use 14 strips of this Ramin v. their 26.  I don't know what they expect you to do with all the scrap they'd have you produce, but I prefer to leave as many 700 mm strips intact rather than have a lot of small pieces.  Besides, the reality is that no ship of 140 or so feet was ever planked with one continuous plank of that length. 
 
I've been remiss in getting some of my own build onto the log but I will try.

Mike, welcome to the forum (I sound like an oldtimer which I am not). Your kit looks similar to my Bounty in that it has mostly open framing. Your's has a few solid bulkheads in the bow and stern which mine does not. So with these (flexible) open frames you will probably encounter similar challenges. However careful I thought I was being, still various alignment problems came up. I was naïve in thinking that if the rebates (notches) connecting the frames to the false keel were tight that the alignment of the frame fore and aft had to be square. Not. I have several that for some reason did not square up, even though at the keel they are perfect. This could be cause of warpage (my kit sat in a garage for 6 years before it was given to me). I've also found that the knees for the decks are not perfectly level (hold platform and lower deck) and I've had to add shims to some. Anyway, my big takeaway from it so far is that you can't trust the kits to be perfect and its a good idea to read the plans as well as the instructions. I look forward to following your progress, and hope you take a look at mine. I've not posted much to my build log lately, but I plan to catch up this weekend.

Well done Mike.  Thanks for sharing your photos and thoughts.

Right purdy little steamer you got there mate.  Someday I might just try one meself.  What with you to show me the how tos it caint be all that diffeecult.

Nice surprise to see you've completed another build and done a smashing good job of it.  Yes, your rigging looks superb.  I particularly checked out the deadeyes and chain plates as those are the parts I've been working on lately.  Very nice.  Looks like you've learned your lessons well.  Lots of good interior detail in there which I know you love.  So its back to stage coaches now?  I think you're quite smart to mix up the builds when you get the urge.

No excuses to delay the second planking of the counter now.  I did the tiller hole and sanded the first planking to as "graceful" a curve as I could.  I'll probably go with Tiger's suggestion to put the planks on first cause I don't have any decent stain on hand and don't know when I can get some.  Anyway, here's the counter ready to go:

Today and probably tomorrow I'll be second planking the counter.  I've been reading the instructions and looking closely at the pictures.  A couple things came to mind which I will throw out for discussion.  First, is it safe to assume that the photos in the booklet replicate the end product in terms of how many planks it will take on each side and, what the angle of the end (middle) of each plank is.  Second, it appears that Chuck would have us plank to the line, and leave an opening for the rudder post.  I've done this before and its pretty hard to get the cuts and placements so perfect that when you put in the rudder post there are no gaps.  Now it could be that there will be moldings between the post and the planks which will cover any imperfections.  But I was thinking that maybe I would temporarily pin in a strip to simulate the rudder post and would then have something to butt the planks up against.  Do you guys think this is a good idea?  Then there's the question of the best place to start the diagonal planking.  I think I would have started at a corner with a small plank and worked my way down or up getting longer and longer and then shorter and shorter til I finished up at the bottom or top.  But my wife reminded me of how a tile layer lays down tiles for a diagonal pattern on a floor -- they will start at the middle and work toward both ends.  The reasoning is that when the time comes to narrow the last plank or two its less noticeable in the small corners.  How would you proceed?  And finally, since this is the second planking I'm going to have to make some color decisions today.  This area is above water line so it should be stained.  I have to check what stain i have, I think only American Walnut which I'm guessing is too dark.  I don't want to just lacquer the basswood; too white.  Thinking about an oak stain.  I'll take a look at some pix on line and see what other's have done.  But the question I have is:  should I stain each plank before gluing it on?  Or glue them all on taking care not to get glue on the surface, then sand and stain the whole surface at the same time.

Technology is not one of my strong suits.

I hadn't considered that there would be a second planking that would somehow interact with the first and with this rabbet to create a real rabbet.  I have a lot to learn.  I'm actually hoping to do as nice a job as I can on the first planking, then paint it and forget the second -- other than above.

I hadn't considered that there would be a second planking that would somehow interact with the first and with this rabbet to create a real rabbet.  I have a lot to learn.  I'm actually hoping to do as nice a job as I can on the first planking, then paint it and forget the second -- other than above.

Thanks for joining this conversation about rabbets, Joel.  I agree that working with shorter planks is much easier; I intend to use 3 for the full length.  When doing so though you have to be careful that the end pieces have not been tapered at their mid ship (or inboard) end.  They have to butt against the middle plank and that one will probably be full width.  I think Chuck suggests starting a taper about 3 inches from the bow and stern.  Whatever it may be that is the point I will end the middle plank so the butt joint is equal in width.
 
I doubt I will fully understand the issue of what the rabbet is supposed to do and if there is a difference between its function in real life and its semi-function on this model.  I do know that in real life a groove or rabbet is chiseled into the keel at varying angles to the keel.  The angle gets steeper as it moves toward the stern.  The garboard plank slots into this rabbet and obviously holds it more secure than if it wasn't there.
 
On some models and most good scratch builds this same process is done, albeit in mini scale.  The garboard actually slots into the keel.  But on this Mayflower kit the "rabbet" is not a groove really.  Its more like....well its just a narrower strip of wood placed exactly down the middle of the keel (false keel or bulkhead former if you will).  What I envision is that when the garboard plank is laid it will butt against this strip.  Since the angle of the butt changes as you move forward and aft, the edge of the plank will have to be beveled cause the rabbet is at 90 degrees to the keel.  Now I was once told that I'm the only one who would think about beveling a .8mm plank to conform to the angle of the previous plank laid, nonetheless this is how I envision it if its necessary.  Laying down the garboard against the rabbet and then running more planks up the bow and stern to meet the rabbet, does not leave me with a vision of tucking or slotting these planks into any groove.  At best this rabbet provides a tiny bit more glue surface when the edge of the plank meets the rabbet.  And that is if you work from fore and aft and make this butt joint.  If you go the other way and don't cut those planks damn precisely, there isn't even going to be that.
 
Now take all this with a grain of salt.  I may be way off base.  I may have missed something along the way.  Misread and not followed instructions well.  So please, correct me if I'm wrong and there should be a real rabbet created on the keel for the planks to secure into.

Been thinking the same thing.  Also looking at the stern where filler may be even more critical.  Thanks for keeping an eye on my build.

Today I plan to 1st plank the counter.  But before getting to it I thought I'd bring the log up to the minute.  After much contemplation I went ahead and faired fram 4b all the way to the width of the forward edge of the poop deck.  It just didn't make any sense not to.  There was no reason why these bulkheads should extend out 1.5mm on each side.  The fairing took awhile but came out smooth.  And as I suspected, it allows the bulwark template to go on with less of a curve or angle back to bulkhead 5.
 
I filled in some gaps between bulkheads and BF with Durhams water putty.  I love this stuff.  A powder that can be made to any consistency needed.  Dries fairly quickly and quite hard and can be sanded.  As I was doing this I looked closely at the space between bulkheads D & E (I could have the letters wrong) up at the bow and recalled how it was impossible on Bounty to plank around the curved bow without putting in some filler for gluing surface.  So I started fiddling with what balsa I have on hand and ultimately got into the zen of wood carving.  So now I have a filler block on one side and I think I will do the same on the other.
 
 

I didn't think that you could 'tuck the plank into the rabbet', I thought (and observe so far) that all you can do is butt the plank up against it.  I don't see how that holds it down or keeps it in place.  Like you said, time will tell.  The rest of it is spot on -- get the butted end on first (maybe a spot of CA there to hold it down) and then work toward the stern.  I still can't decide if I will try using one full length plank or two or three planks, but which ever is easier, the last one can surely be run off the stern and then cut back. 

OK, glad to hear the games are on.  Interesting though that my pinkish BF was perfect and it was those that are bad for you.
 
I'll be glad to oblige you and slow down.  It feels like I'm at a snails pace anyway since getting on with the fairing.  Today I finished gluing on the last deck (the big one) and was looking over the next stage (planking the counter) when I remembered I had wanted to fill some gaps here and there with wood filler.  So I did a bit of that.  I'm using Durhams, a powder that mixes up really nicely into any consistency you need and dries quite hard but is still very sandable.  After a bit of that I got to thinking about filling the bow with balsa filler.  So I began a new career as a wood carver.  I'll post on this in the morning with some pix.  I did one side and I think its good enough to go ahead and do the other and use them. 

Looks good.  All squared up with legos. I looked on line and will probably pick up a can of them sometime soon.  Looks like they would be a great substitute for all the square wood blocks that I keep around.  I also keep a bunch of little wedges.  Keep that in mind when you are filing or sanding bulkheads and would like to stabilize it but don't have room for a block or lego.  I slip a wedge down in between them.
 
Now that you bring up the subject of the rabbet at the bow.... first off, I think I do the same thing; try one way or another to make a technique a bit easier or get a better result and in the end the tried and true way in the instructions are just as good.  But it provides experience and that's really what we're after at this point.  Now, as for the rabbet...I'm thinking of the planking now and with that rabbet strip on the bow it seems that the planks that wrap around the bow are going to have to hit that rabbet.  Means they have to be cut perfectly or else they will need to be started at the rabbet and wrapped back in the direction of the stern.  What I did on Bounty was always to leave plenty of overhang (there was no rabbet) and then cut the planks when dry.  That had the advantage of being able to rubberband the plank to the hull on the opposite side so the bend was held tight.  This is just a first planking so I suppose the joint at the rabbet doesn't have to be perfect.

I just wanted to pop in and offer my heartfelt congratulations and admiration for your completed build.  As a newbie its even more impressive that you made it happen.  It looks great and you should be proud.

OK, glad to hear the games are on.  Interesting though that my pinkish BF was perfect and it was those that are bad for you.
 
I'll be glad to oblige you and slow down.  It feels like I'm at a snails pace anyway since getting on with the fairing.  Today I finished gluing on the last deck (the big one) and was looking over the next stage (planking the counter) when I remembered I had wanted to fill some gaps here and there with wood filler.  So I did a bit of that.  I'm using Durhams, a powder that mixes up really nicely into any consistency you need and dries quite hard but is still very sandable.  After a bit of that I got to thinking about filling the bow with balsa filler.  So I began a new career as a wood carver.  I'll post on this in the morning with some pix.  I did one side and I think its good enough to go ahead and do the other and use them. 

So the fairing continues and is probably reaching its last day or so.  With Chuck's guidance and encouragement the issue of how flexible the bulwark templates will be and how to hold them tight against the frames has pretty much been put to rest, and to the test.  I did some practicing with scrap ply (from used templates) to see how easy or hard it would be to pin those templates down.  I like to know going in what size pin and what size pilot holes to use.  I also realized I would have to stabilize the ship so I would have two free hands.  After several iterations I found that a .5mm pin with 5 mm length would do the job.  The pins that the kit supplies are 10 mm in length and wiggle too much when held in pliers to push in.  (has anyone bought those pin inserting push pliers?  Worth it???).  I've got lots of 5mm pins on hand but if not I'd just snip some 10s down to 5mm.
 
After some more sanding here and there I got the ship anchored down so I could tape the bulkhead template in place.  Irony of ironies, I'm pretty sure that for this first application (putting the templates on temporarily for the purpose of drawing reference lines for the first line of planking) I won't even have to pin them.  You can see in the pix below that this first one sits pretty tight and I can use tape to secure it long enough to get the lines drawn.  When doing this step, make sure that the lines drawn under the template are drawn when the template is being pushed into the convex shape.  If you don't there will be about a .5mm difference when you put the template back on permanently and do push it in flush to the convex frame.  Doesn't sound like much, and probably you could overhang the lowest plank on the template by that much to meet the top line of planking already on the hull, but why not be aware of this?
 
So here's the evidence of progress:

Here's a few snapshots of work in process.  For whatever they're worth.  This is one instance where a picture does not tell 1000 words. 

Here's a few snapshots of work in process.  For whatever they're worth.  This is one instance where a picture does not tell 1000 words. 

Just to say thanks to all those who've stayed aboard.  Happy Easter Sunday.    And Joel, can I blame it on my cheap tools?