Great Harry

[Mark P]

Greetings everyone;

 

Whilst browsing on the NMM website,  I came across this picture. 

 

It shows the 'Great Harry',  one of Henry VIII's favourite ships,  and it looks quite impressive. 

 

The painting is listed as by Hans Holbein,  who was court painter to Henry,  so he should have known what he was painting.

 

I have never seen this before,  and I can't imagine that it would not have been shown in all the books I have read that cover this period. 

 

My question is:  could this/is this really by Holbein?  And if so,  why has it been so overlooked?  Or is it much later?  If the latter,  why would the NMM list it as by Holbein?

 

Maybe this is a different Hans Holbein.  There are no bonnets on the sails,  for one thing.

 

It is PY9170 on the NMM's inventory.

 

Any thoughts very welcome.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

Edited September 12, 2017 by Mark P

[Louie da fly]

This is neither by Holbein nor is it the Great Harry. It's a ship from considerably later. There are in fact two contemporary pictures of the Henry Grace a Dieu, one by Anthony Anthony and the other by an unknown painter, showing her with sails painted to resemble cloth of gold. I think both are shown in my own stalled build (see signature below).

 

She should in fact look very much like the Mary Rose - they were built - and rebuilt - at pretty much the same time - the Great Harry was about one and a half times the size of the Mary Rose.

 

It's a shame this picture in the NMM is still wrongly referenced.

 

Steven

 

[Mark P]

Hi Steven;

 

Thank you for the post. I thought this was too good to be true.  Shame,  because it looks like a lovely picture,  except that she seems to be riding a bit high. 

 

So she is probably a fanciful depiction of no particular real vessel.

 

I have seen the Anthony roll illustrations before.  I remember reading somewhere quite recently (perhaps here on MSW) some new evidence which showed that his depictions were much more accurate than many had thought previously. 

 

I think your other picture comes from a painting of a now-destroyed mural in Cowdray House,  which showed Henry embarking on a voyage to France for the 'Field of the cloth of gold' meeting with Francis I,  king of France.

 

Hope you get back to your model one day,  and finish it off. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

Edited September 16, 2017 by Mark P

[druxey]

If the NMM (now RMG) database has mis-identified this, one can let them know by clicking the box below the description: 

 

Help us	Do you know more about this? Share your knowledge

 

 

[Mark P]

Evening Druxey (or morning!)

 

Thanks for the reminder.  I'll see if I can write a note on the record.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[Louie da fly]

Well, that's news. I didn't know about this picture's Victorian connection. I thought it was done in the 17th century.

 

The Embarkation at Dover is still in existence. It's on a wall in the Wolsey Room at Hampton Court Palace. And the painting of the actual tournament at the Field of the Cloth of Gold is at Hampton Court as well.

 

The mural in Cowdray House depicted the sinking of the Mary Rose. The Great Harry is in the picture as well - there's a reasonably good Victorian copy of the mural, but it's infuriating to think some of the strange details in it may simply be copyist error, not original features.

 

By the way - though the Great Harry was one and a half times the burthen of the Mary Rose, she wasn't much bigger to look at - only about 1.145 times as long - because she was 1.145 times as long, and as wide, and as deep (1.145 x 1.145 x 1.145 = 1.5).

 

Steven

[Mark P]

Good evening Steven;

 

Thank you for the correct information about the murals.  Hampton Court is one of the places which I mean to visit,  but have never yet done so.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[Louie da fly]

It's well worth going. I had to go 12,000 miles to get there, but you're within coo-ee of the place.

 

But then, there's so many worthwhile places to see in the UK. It's hard to see them all in a lifetime (let alone  a three week visit). We went in 2009, the 500th anniversary of Henry VIII coming to the throne, so there was a huge amount of stuff laid on especially to see for those interested in that sort of thing. But the Mary Rose was inaccessible - they had just started building the new enclosure and nobody was allowed near it. On the other hand, the collection of artefacts was increased greatly, so we got to see shoes, a fiddle, wrought iron swivel guns, a parrel truck etc etc . . .

 

 

(We also went to Bristol to see the Great Britain, and were lucky enough to see the Matthew reconstruction while we were there - carrackly goodness!)

 

Steven

[Louie da fly]

I'd always intended to contact the NMM and let them know the picture was wrongly attributed. I've finally done it.Let's see if anything comes of it.

[druxey]

Ha! Better late than never, Steven. I'm glad you've done so - I see it only took you three years to take my suggestion!

[Louie da fly]

11 hours ago, druxey said:

I see it only took you three years to take my suggestion!