AON Posted July 22, 2021 #1 Posted July 22, 2021 I am building a British 3rd rate MOW, launch date 1786, and am trying to represent her as launched. At this point I am working on my main mast top (platform) and am looking at the small details. I am confused by the fact many sources do not agree. Even Steels reads one thing, then presents images that do not agree with the written description or the other view! The Anatomy of Nelsons Ships does likewise. Can anyone tell me if there were in fact 1) individual copper plates, or 2) one long plate per side, or 3) no plates on the top at the slotted holes for the deadeye shrouds? Thank you. Alan mtaylor 1 Quote Alan O'Neill "only dead fish go with the flow" Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014) Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021) Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)
druxey Posted July 22, 2021 #2 Posted July 22, 2021 My understanding is that plate along the side to prevent wear was a single strip, not separate plates. Also, it was on the inner timber with square holes for swivel guns, not the outer strip slotted for the shroud plates. (See Steel, Plate 5. Volume I, Rigging and Seamanship.) allanyed and mtaylor 2 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv
AON Posted July 22, 2021 Author #3 Posted July 22, 2021 Thank you Druxey Yes that is correct. Yet The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships page 173, Figure 103 shows it as a copper deadeye plate with the slots for the deadeye through it. The write up (2nd paragraph from the bottom) reads as if it is two long plates at one per side. The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War on page 23 shows for a 1st rate, 1745, a darkened "A" - "plate for the futtock shroud". The accompanying figure, 1794, 36 gun ship, shows no plate. Page 24, 1802 to 1815, no ship specified, shows "A" - "plate for the futtock shroud". and the accompanying figure for 1815 to 1833 shows "J" - "plate for the futtock shroud". There is no written description for it. Might I also point out Steels plate 2 shows 13 woolding hoops for the main mast, whereas plate 3 shows only 10 for the exact same mast. The written description calls up 6 bolts to connect the two halves of the main mast cap but the image on plate 2 shows 8 It is difficult to find sources that agree with each other, or even themselves! I am beginning to think I may need to "wing it". mtaylor and Mark P 2 Quote Alan O'Neill "only dead fish go with the flow" Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014) Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021) Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)
druxey Posted July 22, 2021 #4 Posted July 22, 2021 Makes more sense to have a protective metal sheet where swivels mount, rather than under deadeye straps where the forces up and down are balanced out. mtaylor 1 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv
AON Posted July 23, 2021 Author #5 Posted July 23, 2021 But are they truly in balance? I've seen shrouds on cutters slack slightly on the leeside so can imagine deadeyes wearing a pocket in a wooden filler piece. The soft brass plate seems a good bearing or wear surface. Why would one source specify them in the larger ships and another suggest something was there? I wonder about these things 🤔 mtaylor 1 Quote Alan O'Neill "only dead fish go with the flow" Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014) Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021) Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)
AON Posted July 23, 2021 Author #6 Posted July 23, 2021 so people can see what I'm looking at My main mast top... below is The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships, pg 173, fig 103... below is The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, pg 23... Archi, PRS and mtaylor 3 Quote Alan O'Neill "only dead fish go with the flow" Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014) Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021) Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)
AON Posted July 26, 2021 Author #7 Posted July 26, 2021 Notes to myself FACT: So the most convincing argument against a copper plate is the galvanic (corrosion) reaction that would occur between the iron deadeye strap in contact with the copper. OPINION: In Mr. Longridge's Anatomy of Nelson's Ships book: he may have suggested copper but failed to mentioned it would be blackened to simulate iron. OPINION: In Mr. Lees' Masting and Rigging book: The iron plate was not individual pads between the stiffening battens, but was one long plate running under the stiffening battens in the early version of the top construction (1745) , and over top in later version (1794) of top construction. Worth noting: It was not shown in the 36 gun version, but then they are shown again in figures for 1802-1815 and 1815-1833 which are not attributed to any specific size of ship. I will continue my search for any definitive primary source. I am also intrigued by the swivel gun chocks and have been looking into those. mtaylor 1 Quote Alan O'Neill "only dead fish go with the flow" Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014) Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021) Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)
AON Posted July 26, 2021 Author #8 Posted July 26, 2021 One afternoon of searching revealed only one item with any detail. Not really a primary source as it is a model of masts and yards on a display board, dated as being displayed at an exhibition in 1938. If you zoom in on any of the three tops you can see the bar with the slotted holes through it. There is no swivel gun chock though. https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/68788.html I'll keep looking. mtaylor 1 Quote Alan O'Neill "only dead fish go with the flow" Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014) Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021) Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)
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