Where to locate cleats around the cockpit on late 19th C small working vessels

[mnl]

My main reason for wanting a tiller extension in the sharpie was visibility, not balance. The back of the cockpit is wide and the house looks fairly high. Even standing you probably won’t see very much. It’s sure nice to be able to sit on the high side and see. 
 

You might be surprised at how much difference moving out a few feet makes. In light air I will have my crew sit on the low side simply so I can drive from the high side. We could just as easily both sit in the center of the boat, balance would be about the same, but neither of us would be able to see much.

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by mnl

[mark.bukovich]

Would a deck house roof about 3 ft above the cockpit floor be considered pretty high? That's about how high this boat's cabin roof would be.

[mark.bukovich]

Update

(Let me know what you guys think about this)

 

A copy of Kunhardt's "Small Yachts" arrived today, and it was a bullseye. The Midwest Chesapeake Bay Flattie kit is absolutely based on Kunhardt's plans. Based on the book, it also seems like Midwest wasn't far off.

 

Kunhardt's plans do not show any seating in the cockpit or any cleats or rigging for this boat. In fact, the only running rigging shown is the line that controls the centerboard. 

 

 

 

 

Throughout the book, Kunhardt does show cockpit seating in some designs in the book, the cockpit is usually much deeper and narrower for those designs. Some designs also show cleat locations, both inside the coamings and without. The "Coot" has a similar but smaller cockpit with cleats inside the coamings similar to the Midwest kit.

 

 

Kunhardt also shows a Hampton Flattie with the helmsman leaning against the aft coaming.

 

[mark.bukovich]

Another quick update.

 

I saw this Herreshoff Newport 29 design:

http://www.herreshoffdesigns.com/newport29.html

 

Although this is a larger and more modern boat, the cockpit is similar in size (possibly a little bigger), so I think it's a good example of how to make it work. Basically, the coaming "rails" are true seats instead of just rails. 

 

I'll do another drawing and upload. Basically, I will replace the kit's coaming rails with seats set on top of the coamings (along with appropriate supporting structure) . The distance to the cockpit floor is a little higher than ideal, but I can raise the planked flooring or add cleats that act as foot rests and braces while heeled.

 

Edit: looking closer at the brochure, I can see that coamings still rise slightly higher than the seats on the sides. It also has a wheel instead of a tiller.

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by mark.bukovich
Additional text added

[mnl]

You missed the most interesting feature in that picture. Look at the person sitting in front of the wheel. They are sitting across the cockpit with their feet braced against the seat on the other side. That's why cockpits tend to be about that wide, so it is easy to brace yourself. Also, you can brace yourself on a wheel, it's much harder to do that on a tiller. 

 

The flattie above looks to be fairly far off the breeze. The boom is out beyond the corner of the transom. There will be less heel and it will be easier to wedge yourself in the corner on the low side. You can also see the battens on the cockpit sole to give some foot purchase. 

 

It will be a little less fun if the boat is a little closer to the breeze so that the boom is just inside the corner of the cockpit. Now there isn't room to get between the boom and the tiller so you have to steer from the high side. Also if there is a bit of a breeze there will be a little more heel which makes it harder to stand. Add in the current running the opposite direction, generally happens twice a day on the Bay, and you get the washing machine slop. That makes it really hard to have to steer standing up. 

[mark.bukovich]

3 hours ago, mnl said:

You missed the most interesting feature in that picture. Look at the person sitting in front of the wheel. They are sitting across the cockpit with their feet braced against the seat on the other side. That's why cockpits tend to be about that wide, so it is easy to brace yourself. Also, you can brace yourself on a wheel, it's much harder to do that on a tiller. 

 

The flattie above looks to be fairly far off the breeze. The boom is out beyond the corner of the transom. There will be less heel and it will be easier to wedge yourself in the corner on the low side. You can also see the battens on the cockpit sole to give some foot purchase. 

 

It will be a little less fun if the boat is a little closer to the breeze so that the boom is just inside the corner of the cockpit. Now there isn't room to get between the boom and the tiller so you have to steer from the high side. Also if there is a bit of a breeze there will be a little more heel which makes it harder to stand. Add in the current running the opposite direction, generally happens twice a day on the Bay, and you get the washing machine slop. That makes it really hard to have to steer standing up. 

 

So basically, it's quite important for the cockpit to accommodate sitting on the high side while healing? Take a look at my updated drawing see if you think it would take care of that. Also, do you think the seating in the aft cockpit would be superfluous? (Note that I added a plank on the cockpit floor center to brace feet against.)

 

I am basing the dimensions on this article:

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sailboat-reviews/comfortable-sailboat-cockpit-seating

 

And taking some inspiration from this Herreshoff yacht:

 

[mnl]

Look at your bottom picture. It’s much easier to see where you’re going from the high side.

 

The article you found looks like it gives some solid advice. Also if in the picture of the cockpit there is a large batten running down the center to brace your feet against. In the lower picture you can see that the helmsman is also using the binnacle as a foot brace.

 

It’s hard to get comfortable if you don’t feel secure and sliding around is a great way to not feel secure.

[mark.bukovich]

19 hours ago, mnl said:

Look at your bottom picture. It’s much easier to see where you’re going from the high side.

 

The article you found looks like it gives some solid advice. Also if in the picture of the cockpit there is a large batten running down the center to brace your feet against. In the lower picture you can see that the helmsman is also using the binnacle as a foot brace.

 

It’s hard to get comfortable if you don’t feel secure and sliding around is a great way to not feel secure.

 

Yeah, it looks like for the guy sitting on the low side, the whole boat is in his way.

 

If you imagine yourself piloting the boat in my drawing, and you could choose to remove the aft portion of the seat (in between the side benches), would you?

Although it looks nice, seems like this rear seat is pretty much useless and in the way when a boat has a tiller.

 

Also, assuming those cleats in my drawing outside the coaming are for the jib sheets, if you were piloting that boat and needed to sheet the main temporarily, where would you hope there was another cleat?

Edited March 15, 2022 by mark.bukovich
Added sentence to second paragraph

[mnl]

Yes, with a tiller it’s not really a convenient place to sit, but it makes an ok place to set your lunch.

 

I would put main cleats on the deck behind the back corners of the cockpit.

 

BTW, the sides of the cockpit where you have the jib cleats must be stout and the cleats through bolted. It’s really a drag to get hit with a big puff and have the cleat rip out, or the side of the cockpit. One problem with putting them up in the air like that is there is now a lever arm down to wherever the side attaches. 

[mark.bukovich]

22 hours ago, mnl said:

Yes, with a tiller it’s not really a convenient place to sit, but it makes an ok place to set your lunch.

 

I would put main cleats on the deck behind the back corners of the cockpit.

 

BTW, the sides of the cockpit where you have the jib cleats must be stout and the cleats through bolted. It’s really a drag to get hit with a big puff and have the cleat rip out, or the side of the cockpit. One problem with putting them up in the air like that is there is now a lever arm down to wherever the side attaches. 

 

Ok, this might be my final drawing. Let me know what you think. I also have one more question about the centerboard line and cleat if you guys are up for it.

 

 

In the kit, the centerboard line comes out of the cabin roof and goes directly to a cleat, and that's it. In Kunhardt's drawing, the centerboard line is attached to a block that has a line going through. According to Kunhardt, the standing end of the line is attached to the cabin roof, and the working end is tied to a cleat on the cabin roof close to the cockpit. However, he doesn't explain or show how the standing end is fastened to the cabin roof. Would it be another cleat? How would you go about fastening such a line? Here is the centerboard line on Kunhardt's flattie, and following is another yacht in Kunhardt's book with a similar setup:

 

 

[mark.bukovich]

It's been a while, but I just wanted to post in here to show the fruits of this discussion. She's almost finished, and this thread has been a huge help and influence. 

 

@mnl I'm thinking about how I want to finish the mainsheet. I'm thinking in this configuration, the boat is likely heeling to starboard, and the helmsman sitting on the port bench. If he needed to cleat the main, he would probably do that on the port cleat with the sheet crossing over the tiller, right? I'm guessing the remaining line would be coiled on the cockpit floor maybe? 

 

I'm also guessing all that extra coiled line for the centerboard lead on the cabin roof is unnecessary. I kind of like it though 😄