Christiania 1774 by TJM – approx. 1:67-1:64 – Danish Light Frigate based on Vanguard Models HMS Sphinx

[TJM]

@Arthur Goulart, thanks for the suggestion - in fact this issue had been increasingly been bugging me lately. 

 

My original plan was to have a colour scheme like this: 

This looks like two thin wales, painted black, which was the norm up until at least the 1720's or 30's. But i have become aware of the way the wales were made later in the 18th century that you point out, and it makes it difficult to decide what to do colour wise.

 

As mentioned in this post, I am not sure I like the look if I continued the yellow cedar on the wale part. Though that may be the more realistic option! 

 

This is also the way the model of Gerner's Bornholm is depicted: 

 

However, I would like to keep as much of the hull natural wood as possible, so I would like to avoid painting the area between the wale and the waterline black, though this would probably be the most realistic.

 

Instead I looked towards another model, of the hukkert Amager:

 

 

 

This shows the black double wale, it is a ship by Krabbe like Christiania and the original drawing shows the same wale, blended into the planking: 

 

But I admit that I am not being consistent here, and that balancing the historical accuracy with the wish to show as much wood as possible is getting me into trouble! 

 

I am seeing a number of options here:

 

1) continue as planned, two thin wales painted black. It will look good, but will not be accurate for the time period - a bit of a pitty!

 

2) add three wale stakes in pear and blend it into the hull, no black paint at all. I think this may look a bit unfinished? And it might be difficult to get a nice transition when blending the lower part - I could leave a smaller ridge there as an easier transition.

 

3) add two or 3 yellow ceder and one pear plank as wale, and blend it into the hull. This would have the pear represent the part that is painted black, between the wale on many several depictions, incl. the Bornholm model.

 

4) build the whale from yellow cedar, blend it into the hull, and paint the area between the main wale snd waterline black. This is probably the most realistic, but it paints over the nicest part of the pear hull planking 😅! And this is what I wanted to avoid!

 

It might have been better if I had planked the upper part either entirely in pear or yellow cedar, but I am not ripping it off now! I will have to find a solution based on wale planking and painting.

 

Any suggestions, both on opinions on the above, or on other suggestions for a solution, would be much appreciated!

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:35 PM by TJM

[Arthur Goulart]

TJM,

You're right.

 

I had overlooked the posts about the black starting under the wales, but there is substancial evidence it did, specially when comparing Søe Ridderen's painted depiction you showed a couple times already on the topic with the ship's sheer plan, as you've noted too.

Furthermore, take a look at this illustration:

 

Doqven, Chistiansborg, BlaacHejeren, and Falster, all show the outline of the step of the upper wale, and the black portion, which follows the contour of the outlined step. That shows both awareness of the naval painting pratices of his time and intention to reproduce them by the depiction's author. And on Friederich et Lovise and on Neptunes, on which the wales were seemingly not blended with the hull, the black starts even lower.

 

Grant it, these are earlier examples than Christiania, but, that's some further evidence to think about.

 

Best regards,

Arthur.

Edited Wednesday at 05:05 PM by Arthur Goulart

[TJM]

I think this contemporary model of Fyen (1736) shows how it would have been. Even if it is some 40 years earlier than Christiania:

 

 

 

We know that the ships were not painted between the upper decoration and the lower wale until sometime in Gerner's period, so after Christiania was built - I did not know this when I decided to emulate the painted yellow band with the cedar. This is why I am now considering making it the main 'wood' colour for the hull instead, by using it for the wale as well.

Edited Wednesday at 05:37 PM by TJM

[Arthur Goulart]

Interestingly, as well, on Fyen's model the black goes up the wales, which makes sense. On Fyen's case, if the black was restricted to under the wales, it would be a thin, odd looking, section. Now, analysing it with that in mind, Falster, unlike the one deckers on the image I posted above, does not show the black outlined upper wale strake edge, as to suggest Falster is represented with the same scheme we see on Fyen. So, to summarize the conclusions from these few evidences: for frigates and smaller vessels, as the wales were relatively higher to the waterline, the black ended just below the wales, while for ships of more decks, the lower wales would too be painted black. Makes sense to me.

 

And, TJM, you can always say that the model represents Christiania later in her career, by then she would've been yellow. You've hooked my interest though, why did you come to the conclusion that the yellow came sometime in Gerner's period, not before?

Edited Wednesday at 07:48 PM by Arthur Goulart

[TJM]

28 minutes ago, Arthur Goulart said:

Interestingly, as well, on Fyen's model the black goes up the wales, which makes sense. On Fyen's case, if the black was restricted to under the wales, it would be a thin, odd looking, section. Now, analysing it with that in mind, Falster, unlike the one deckers on the image I posted above, does not show the black outlined upper wale strake edge, as to suggest Falster is represented with the same scheme we see on Fyen. So, to summarize the conclusions from these few evidences: for frigates and smaller vessels, as the wales were relatively higher to the waterline, the black ended just below the wales, while for ships of more decks, the lower wales would too be painted black. Makes sense to me.

 

And, TJM, you can always say that the model represents Christiania later in her career, by then she would've been yellow. You've hooked my interest, though, why did you come to the conclusion that the yellow came sometime in Gerner's period, not before?

 

Yes, this is also what I conclude based on the evidence I have seen so far. And yes, no matter what, this build will not be a truly faithful representation of Christiania - it cannot be with me adapting the Sphinx kit. All of the deck furnishings will be 1:1 the Sphinx setup. So I guess I can take the liberties I want, but I still have to decide what I prefer 😅

 

The comment about the painting of the ships comes from Danske Orlogsskibe 1690-1860 (a fantastic book!):

 

This translates to:

 

In Gerner’s period, the painting of ships was introduced in the Danish navy. This came about almost through a private initiative, as the commander of Sophia Frederica in 1781, A. F. Moltke (1748–1820), at his own expense had his ship painted. The following year, the commander of the Indfødsretten, in connection with sailing to the Mediterranean, requested permission to do the same. The commander of Holmen had now come to the conclusion that painting was more preservative than the ordinary tallowing that had previously been used, and therefore had the painting of all Danish ships of the line carried out.¹¹

 

Previously, the ships had been “blacked” with a mixture of thin tar and soot, something that gave the ships a dark brown, almost blackish appearance. According to the regulations, this applied only to ships of the line, while the frigates were occasionally treated with pine pitch. When the blacking and pitch-coating took place, care was taken to cover tarpaulins over the “externally painted ship ornaments” in order to avoid blackening them.¹²

 

Reference 11 is to a text by F.C.Kaas published posthumously in 1843 who recounts the work that was done while he was Chief of Holmen (the Navy shipyard in Copenhagen) from 1781-92

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:06 PM by TJM

[Arthur Goulart]

19 hours ago, TJM said:

 

Yes, this is also what I conclude based on the evidence I have seen so far. And yes, no matter what, this build will not be a truly faithful representation of Christiania - it cannot be with me adapting the Sphinx kit. All of the deck furnishings will be 1:1 the Sphinx setup. So I guess I can take the liberties I want, but I still have to decide what I prefer 😅

 

The comment about the painting of the ships comes from Danske Orlogsskibe 1690-1860 (a fantastic book!):

 

This translates to:

 

In Gerner’s period, the painting of ships was introduced in the Danish navy. This came about almost through a private initiative, as the commander of Sophia Frederica in 1781, A. F. Moltke (1748–1820), at his own expense had his ship painted. The following year, the commander of the Indfødsretten, in connection with sailing to the Mediterranean, requested permission to do the same. The commander of Holmen had now come to the conclusion that painting was more preservative than the ordinary tallowing that had previously been used, and therefore had the painting of all Danish ships of the line carried out.¹¹

 

Previously, the ships had been “blacked” with a mixture of thin tar and soot, something that gave the ships a dark brown, almost blackish appearance. According to the regulations, this applied only to ships of the line, while the frigates were occasionally treated with pine pitch. When the blacking and pitch-coating took place, care was taken to cover tarpaulins over the “externally painted ship ornaments” in order to avoid blackening them.¹²

 

Reference 11 is to a text by F.C.Kaas published posthumously in 1843 who recounts the work that was done while he was Chief of Holmen (the Navy shipyard in Copenhagen) from 1781-92

 

That's awesome how it's possible to precise a date like that, thats more than a decade later from the adoption of paint by the British.

Also, just the other day, I was wondering what they finished the wood with when it was left unpainted, and, there it is! I'd be curious to know if there are photos of oak finished by those methods, so to see how it actually looked back then.

Thanks a lot, @TJM, you've taught me quite a lot these last interactions!