Staghound 1850 by rwiederrich - 1/96 - Extreme Clipper

[ClipperFan]

50 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

One minute I’m making great sense, then the next minute I’m making no sense.  I’m not talking about the ventilators you referenced, but the ones atop the plank sheet, between the bulwark stanchions.   These guys can become submerged in heavy seas. 
Here’s some examples from Campbell and Rick’s Flying Fish. 

Rob,

I didn't say that you made no sense. I wouldn't think that of you. I said the concept of leaving areas of the ship open to essentially a form of internal flooding doesn't make sense. It occurs to me that there must have been some sort of anti-flooding valve to prevent such occurrences. Incidentally, just in my brief reading, so far at least, the type of gooseneck ventilators illustrated here don't seem to have appeared much on clipper ships. I'm still researching the topic of ship's ventilators along the planksheer actually installed on clipper ships. As usual, I'll let you know what I find out. 

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Wonderful documentation… Rich.  Great job!

 

Rob

Rob,

Thanks! This should make modeling the masts of Stag Hound easier and precisely accurate. Imagine how exciting it would be if I can get more useful images of the model currently in storsge?

[Rick310]

Rob , I agree with Rich that the ventilators in the planksheer would have some kind of valve(ball valve?) to prevent water from entering.  The model of the clipper ship Challenge in the Smithsonian America History Museum 

has what appears to be a Ball valve on the end of the ventilator.  I have an old photograph that I will try to find and post it.  It’s a large model possibly 1:48 inches scale. I didn’t try to replicate it.

Rick

[rwiederrich]

A ball float valve.   Right. Makes sense. Pretty complex valve system to manufacture for 1850 ships that used wooden bitts till 1869.  
 

Im working through it all…………..

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, Rick310 said:

Rob , I agree with Rich that the ventilators in the planksheer would have some kind of valve(ball valve?) to prevent water from entering.  The model of the clipper ship Challenge in the Smithsonian America History Museum 

has what appears to be a Ball valve on the end of the ventilator.  I have an old photograph that I will try to find and post it.  It’s a large model possibly 1:48 inches scale. I didn’t try to replicate it.

Rick

@Rick310 now that makes sense. I've had "the devil's own time" trying to relocate the article I read which said that gooseneck ventilators were rarely installed on clippers. If I remember, it had illustrations of straight tubes with some sort of shielding cover instead. My focus was on Emerson's patent ventilators at the time. So I figured it would be my next topic after sharing the info on Emerson's ventilators. But I agree that while these were wooden ships, they employed a lot of innovative designs too. Preventing an ever present danger of any sort of water penetration would have been a top priority. 

[ClipperFan]

I found the earlier reference. Scott Bradner has a long dissertation on different types of ventilators employed on mid 1800s clipper ships. He refers to a Dec 1994 Nautical Research Journal article which is his source for a lot of his topic. Robert C and Grisel M Leavitt note that gooseneck ventilators illustrated by Lankford on his extreme clipper Flying Fish plans were patented by Ebenezer Knight in 1847. However, they state that there was only evidence of two clipper ships of the 1800s which employed that design.

Most likely McKay's ships did not. Instead, they say McKay ships would have a simple 2" to 2 & 1/2" diameter open top straight brass tubes installed between stanchions and these would have terminated just below the main rail. About 5' high. Considering there were a minimum of one ventilator between each stanchion 30" apart on Flying Cloud, it's about 188 open sources for water to get in. That's simply inconcievable, so there had to be ways to seal water out. Here's a link to this fascinating article:

 

https://www.sobco.com/ship_model/fc/details/ventilators.htm

Edited August 2 by ClipperFan
grammar correction

[rwiederrich]

11 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

I found the earlier reference. Scott Bradner has a long dissertation on different types of ventilators employed on mid 1800s clipper ships. He refers to a Dec 1994 Nautical Research Journal article which is his source for a lot of his topic. Robert C and Grisel M Leavitt note that gooseneck ventilators illustrated by Lankford on his extreme clipper Flying Fish plans were patented by Ebenezer Knight in 1847. However, they state that there was only evidence of two clipper ships of the 1800s which employed that design.

Most likely McKay's ships did not. Instead, they say McKay ships would have a simple 2" to 2 & 1/2" diameter open top straight brass tubes installed between stanchions and these would have terminated just below the main rail. About 5' high. Considering there were a minimum of one ventilator between each stanchion 30" apart on Flying Cloud, it's about 188 open sources for water to get in. That's simply inconcievable, so there had to be ways to seal water out. Here's a link to this fascinating article:

 

https://www.sobco.com/ship_model/fc/details/ventilators.htm

I was just reading your reply over on Ships.....   And my next question was....how do you keep water out?  Possibly the length of 5ft and the proximity of *Just* under the rail, behind the pin rail, protected the entrance as a hood would, from encroaching water?

 

Told you, this was going to be an issue to solve.  A lot doesn't make sense currently.

 

Rob 

Edited August 2 by rwiederrich

[B-Ram]

Hello everyone,

 

Am I correct in reading the letter from Cornelius McKay that the Staghound was built in less than ninety days? That’s amazing.

 

Bill

Edited August 2 by B-Ram

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, B-Ram said:

Hello everyone,

 

Am I correct in reading the letter from Cornelius McKay that the Staghound was built in less than ninety days? That’s amazing.

 

Bill

Bill, not only was she built in less than 90 days, the contract actually stipulated that she had to be built in 90 days. 

[Luis Felipe]

Hi, may be that this reference can be useful, browsing in the WEB I found these very detailed plans for the Flying Fish, done by Mr. Bradner, in particular this of the bulkwarks, It shows the ventilations pipes allocation. Also one specific on the ventilators. Probably will be easy to find it in the web.

Flying_Cloud_Bradner_bulwarks.pdf Flying_Cloud_deck_ventilators.pdf

[B-Ram]

To have built a ship of this magnitude in less than ninety days is unbelievable. I would love to know the amount of manpower and the time schedule that was required for such an endeavor.  This was completed with no powered tools or equipment. 

 

Bill 

[ClipperFan]

@Luis Felipe

Thanks for these detailed bulwark plans. Steve Bradner does nice clean work. One error Rob and Vlad learned the hard way is the Glory of the Seas forecastle height. While the Boston Daily Atlas states that the forecastle deck was mounted at the main rail height, that was not the case. Michael Mjelde sent us a document, an excerpt of a letter regarding a windlass upgrade. To ensure fit, precise internal height of the forecastle deck was given: 5 feet, 9 inches. With decks being 3 & 1/2 inches, that puts the forecastle deck at 6 feet 1/2 inch. To accomplish this, the forecastle deck must be mounted atop the monkey rail. So the only rail surrounding the forecastle is the 18 inch splash rail. Another photo shows about a foot high shelf running alongside the rail which terminates in an elegant curving point a few feet before the bow point of the forecastle. 

What we're now trying to determine is what apparatus was employed to prevent water ingressing into the ship's apartments, if waves break over the side? My hunch is somehow any water ingested would somehow be redirected to the ship's scuppers. I have yet to find anything to confirm that. This I know for sure. There's no way a vessel would be designed that would ignore the risk of open pipes funneling seawater below!

[ClipperFan]

3 minutes ago, B-Ram said:

To have built a ship of this magnitude in less than ninety days is unbelievable. I would love to know the amount of manpower and the time schedule that was required for such an endeavor.  This was completed with no powered tools or equipment. 

 

Bill 

Bill, I'm pretty sure Donald McKay's shipyard was equipped with some power equipment. Since this was decades before an established 8 hour day or even weekends, the shipyard was most likely running something like 12-14 hours a day, 6 days a week. Basically sun-up to sun-down. It's well known too that Mr. McKay cared very much for his workers and treated them like family. Consider this too: Stag Hound launched December 21st, 1850 while an even larger clipper ship Flying Cloud launched April 25th, 1851. That's roughly 140 days later....

[B-Ram]

Hello ClipperFan

I'm sure your right. In my nearsighted mind I only thought of tools powered by electricity. There were other ways to power large wood cutting machinery.

 

Bill 

[ClipperFan]

4 minutes ago, B-Ram said:

Hello ClipperFan

I'm sure your right. In my nearsighted mind I only thought of tools powered by electricity. There were other ways to power large wood cutting machinery.

 

Bill 

Bill, no problem. By the way, I agree with you. Constructing these amazing clipper ships in such record time is an amazing accomplishment. Then again, I've read that in World War II, shipyards launched entire "Liberty Ships" in a week's time!

[Rick310]

Clipper Fan, I just went back and looked at the pictures of the Flying Cloud in the Boston Museum of Fine Art and there is no evidence that there are ventilators in the plank sheet on the model.  I understand that Capt Arthur Clark supervised the building of the model.

Of course, this doesn’t mean that there weren’t ventilators, probably were but just not modeled.  
Whether or not the Flying Fish had gooseneck ventilators or straight is open to debate that hopefully further research will elucidate.  
I believe that the gooseneck ventilators on the FF were chosen as the only known model that has them is the Challenge in the Smithsonian.

I also keep in mind that the list of contributions to the FF plans by Ben Lankford is a very distinguished list, including Eric Ronnburg

 

 

[Rick310]

I understand that the planksheer  ventilators were to allow air circulation in the air space between the frames, bounded by the hull planking on the outside, and the ceiling planking on the inside.  The ceiling planking had air holes drilled into it to allow air circulation to prevent rot to the frames.

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, Rick310 said:

Clipper Fan, I just went back and looked at the pictures of the Flying Cloud in the Boston Museum of Fine Art and there is no evidence that there are ventilators in the plank sheet on the model.  I understand that Capt Arthur Clark supervised the building of the model.

Of course, this doesn’t mean that there weren’t ventilators, probably were but just not modeled.  
Whether or not the Flying Fish had gooseneck ventilators or straight is open to debate that hopefully further research will elucidate.  
I believe that the gooseneck ventilators on the FF were chosen as the only known model that has them is the Challenge in the Smithsonian.

I also keep in mind that the list of contributions to the FF plans by Ben Lankford is a very distinguished list, including Eric Ronnburg

 

 

@Rick310 I had no idea that Captain Arthur Clark was involved in the creation of the magnificent Boucher Flying Cloud model at rhe Boston Museum of Fine Art. The display of her sails looks like they made the Currier & Ives print come to life. This beautiful model and her twin at Addison's Gallery, Phillip's Academy, Andovrt, MA are my favorite. The top image is from Boston Museum of Fine Arts while the bottom is at Addison's Gallery.

Too bad Captain Clark missed the unique McKay navel hood, cutwater bow. It still mystifies me how these important nautical devices have been lost for nearly two centuries!  I imagine how more lovely she'd look with her prow restored properly.

As for apparent lack of side ventilators, they're definitely described in the Boston Daily Atlas article. She's also noted to have Emerson's patented ventilators too. I wonder if they were at least included? 

[ClipperFan]

On 8/2/2024 at 8:40 PM, Rick310 said:

I understand that the planksheer  ventilators were to allow air circulation in the air space between the frames, bounded by the hull planking on the outside, and the ceiling planking on the inside.  The ceiling planking had air holes drilled into it to allow air circulation to prevent rot to the frames.

@Rick310

you learn something new every day. I had no idea that the side ventilators were to aerate the hull; that they had nothing to do with fresh air circulation for living spaces. Maybe that's why Emerson's patent ventilators were also installed? I'm still digging to find out what systems were employed to prevent water infiltration.

Edited August 4 by ClipperFan
grammar correction

[Rick310]

WOW. Didn’t know that there was a second model of the Flying Cloud by Boucher.  Very similar but differ with the studding sails.  You are exactly correct that the Emerson ventilators were for air circulation of the holds and cabin spaces.  The model in Boston lacks these ventilators as well.

I read about Arthur Clark’s involvement with the building of the model in a description of the model by the museum.

However, when I went to see the model, Arthur Clark was not mentioned.  They did say, as I recall, that someone who had served on board the Flying Cloud had supervised it’s construction.

I hope to get back to Boston to get more photos of the model in the near future and will pay more attention to the description.

Rick

[Rick310]

Also, the model of the Challenge at the Smithsonian has both types of ventilators

[ClipperFan]

40 minutes ago, Rick310 said:

WOW. Didn’t know that there was a second model of the Flying Cloud by Boucher.  Very similar but differ with the studding sails.  You are exactly correct that the Emerson ventilators were for air circulation of the holds and cabin spaces.  The model in Boston lacks these ventilators as well.

I read about Arthur Clark’s involvement with the building of the model in a description of the model by the museum.

However, when I went to see the model, Arthur Clark was not mentioned.  They did say, as I recall, that someone who had served on board the Flying Cloud had supervised it’s construction.

I hope to get back to Boston to get more photos of the model in the near future and will pay more attention to the description.

Rick

@Rick310

at the risk of sounding like a broken record, it makes me wonder how someone who served on a ship could completely miss how thoroughly inaccurate and unfinished her prow was... 

[ClipperFan]

While we were evaluating correct rake to the masts of Staghound I found two sources which contradict the Boston Daily Atlas account of an extreme 1 & 1/2" to 1'. Another document "US Nautical Magazine, Volume II, 1855" stated her rake was a more moderate 1 & 1/4" to 1'.

http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Shipbuilding/USNM-2(1855)_p401.html

That sounded more reasonable. Then I took another look at this painting sent to me by The Bostonian Society, which owns this remarkable piece. The curator of their museum confirmed that this is indeed a work of a Chinese artist. That makes it what's known as a Chinese Export Artwork. Why that's significant is these clever artists had prepainted canvasses with entirely finished seascapes readily prepared. They would then present various options to ship's captains who would select their favorite background. Then their vessel would be painted in the foreground as the ship lay in the harbor. To my knowledge, this is the very first authentic, contemporay work of art of McKay's extreme clipper Staghound! The vessel Cornelius referred to as his father's "Pioneer craft of the California Clipper Fleet." For our purposes, we can clearly see her masts rake but at a more moderate 1 & 1/4" to 1'. We now have two authentic sources to confirm that rake and refute the more extreme one described mistakenly by Duncan McLean.

FYI: I'm requesting the costs to get a clean copy of this piece. When I get those prices, I will share them with the group here.

Edited August 3 by ClipperFan
additional information

[ClipperFan]

Yesterday, Vlad sent us his latest progress on his cad files to create a wooden plank on bulkhead kit, similar to Blue Jacket's Flying Fish. Vladimir's supplier can reproduce these in 1:96th scale (roughly 2'4" at 226') or 1:72nd scale (about  3'2" at 226') not counting her extremely long bowsprit-jibboom. Actually, the supplier could do other scales as well. Although I have yet to work in wood, I have a set of Glory of the Seas bulkheads and already intend to secure a set of Staghound too once they're ready. Even with shipping costs from Europe, they're very reasonably priced. True to his word, Vlad was nice enough to reassure me (and the wistful ghost of Cornelius McKay 😉 ) that his cad design was indeed identical to the McKay model. 

[Rick310]

Rich,  I suspect that Arthur Clark did not serve aboard the Flying Cloud, but was involved with the building of the model due to his extensive knowledge and experience, having served on clipper ships, although possibly not the Flying Cloud.  This might explain the lack of first hand knowledge of the bow/naval hood as well as the ventilators.

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, Rick310 said:

Rich,  I suspect that Arthur Clark did not serve aboard the Flying Cloud, but was involved with the building of the model due to his extensive knowledge and experience, having served on clipper ships, although possibly not the Flying Cloud.  This might explain the lack of first hand knowledge of the bow/naval hood as well as the ventilators.

@Rick310 Thanks for the further update. Looking at the spectacularly life-like sail and rigging results, I can see where input of a veteran sailor would be immensely helpful. I also mean not to disparage the reputation of captain Arthur Clark. After all, McKay's own son Cornelius had great respect for the man. As for hull ventilators to prevent dry rot, that's such a significant issue, I've got to believe just like salting this had to be standard practice on all wooden vessels. Now, I wonder since they were brass would they have been left natural and polished for routine maintenance or painted to match the hull?

[rwiederrich]

“Now, I wonder since they were brass wouldthey have been left natural and polished for routine maintenance or painted to match the hull?”

 

Im painting then to match the white bulwark.  Polishing brass is a military torture….Not so much on commercial vessels. 
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

“Now, I wonder since they were brass wouldthey have been left natural and polished for routine maintenance or painted to match the hull?”

 

Im painting then to match the white bulwark.  Polishing brass is a military torture….Not so much on commercial vessels. 
 

Rob

Rob,

Seriously, not to be a royal pain in the **** but the bulkheads of Staghound were pearl, relieved with white and she had blue waterways.

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Seriously, not to be a royal pain in the **** but the bulkheads of Staghound were pearl, relieved with white and she had blue waterways.

Indeed.   White….pearl.    Whatever…….I ain’t leavin them brass.   My point.     I believe they were probably painted.  Less maintenance.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

6 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Indeed.   White….pearl.    Whatever…….I ain’t leavin them brass.   My point.     I believe they were probably painted.  Less maintenance.  
 

Rob

Rob,

Oh yeah, on that we agree.  Try as I might, I still can't find any system that was used to prevent water ingestion. I just know that there must have been something.