Staghound 1850 by rwiederrich - 1/96 - Extreme Clipper

[rwiederrich]

Rich, I think we need to mimic the companion ways like that are found on this Thermopylae model    
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

41 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Rich, I think we need to mimic the companion ways like that are found on this Thermopylae model    
 

Rob

Rob,

That's a beautiful tea clipper Thermopylae model. If you feel this is more authentic, that can be done. It's reminiscent of the Glory of the Seas stern coach house aft companion. Meanwhile, how do you feel about the rest of my conceptual focsle bulkhead? Is it too ornate? Do you agree or disagree with this or any type of windows? If there's no windows, how else would light be provided? Prisms would make sense but I don't know how much light they would provide. Is the idea of a focsle skylight realistic or too extreme?

[rwiederrich]

Rich, I have not seen you concept .  Where is it?

[rwiederrich]

What I’m talking about is the companion way entry. From 5 ft to 3 ft below

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Rich, I have not seen you concept .  Where is it?

Rob 

I thought I already shared this. It's my preliminary focstle bulkhead sketch. At both ends are the companions. They consist of dual, single opening doors. Push one and the other opens too. Both fold flat inward. Companions are 30" wide x 4' high. Focstle bulkhead is 30' long x 5' high. As I envision it, the commpanions project out 2' and are flush with focstle deck above. Dual focstle ladders mount just inside each companion. The focstle deck creates an overhang to protect windows. Each window alternates with ornate cabinet style molded areas. In between these, there are faux pillars to complete the impression carried forth in the small portico, tying the ship together thematically. I see widows protected with similar wooden venetian-style slats like those seen on skylights to protect against bad weather conditions. As I said, this is preliminary, a work in progress. It may be a bit overkill but here's my reasoning. Donald McKay intentionally built the largest merchant vessel in the world. He was definitely making a statement that Boston had arrived as a strong competitor to the New York shipyards. Why not make her ornate as well???

Edited August 24 by ClipperFan
additional information

[ClipperFan]

On 8/22/2024 at 8:17 PM, ClipperFan said:

@Rick310 Thanks for the compliment. These incredibly beautiful photos come singularly through the kind generosity of Lori Fidler, Associate Director of Collections, Old State House, Old South Meeting House, 310 Washington Street, Boston, MA 02108. This spectacular 173-year-old antique is in storage at their warehouse. Personally, I doubt that it's available to the general public to view but I sent her a request to see if it's a possibility. Perhaps a supervised visit could be arranged. I will let you know her response to this inquiry.

Originally, she quoted me $40/hr for maybe a couple hours for two curators to take the artifact out of storage and take pictures for me. However, when she discovered that it wasn't in complex wrapping, she took these photos and waived the fee. Since I'm still attempting to get port broadside photo, head-on fore and aft photos too. The idea is to make best use of this truly unique connection to Donald McKay's visionary inaugural, extreme clipper Stag Hound which Cornelius McKay brilliantly named "the Pioneer craft of the California Clipper Fleet. I'm still trying to chase down the drawing which originally accompanied this remarkably crafted, sole surviving authentic Builder's model. I will also share the 1850 Chinese export painting that Lori kindly shared too. For $25 it's possible to get a copy without the watermark. She was kind enough to send me both low and high-res images for that modest fee. I have her contact info, if you want to message me.

@Rick310

An update on your inquiry about seeing Cornelius McKay's stunning extreme clipper Stag Hound hull model in person. Lori told me their warehouse isn't open to the general public. No surprise. She did say there might be plans to display the artifact sometime next year. I reminded her that December 7th, 2025 will be the 175th Anniversary of the launch of Stag Hound and that wouldn't it be nice if all Boston and Massachusetts museums could do a coordinated retrospective on the amazing legacy of Donald McKay? She agreed to pass on my suggestion to the Exhibit Committer. In a separate communication, author Michael Mjelde answered me with two simple words: "I concur."

I was told by Lori to stay in touch for further developments. 

6 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

What I’m talking about is the companion way entry. From 5 ft to 3 ft below

 

[Rick310]

Thank you Rich for the follow up.

If it should ever be shown to the public, I would very much like to meet you and view it with you if you can make it to Boston.  I live in Maine, so getting to Boston is not difficult.

Rick

[rwiederrich]

5 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob 

I thought I already shared this. It's my preliminary focstle bulkhead sketch. At both ends are the companions. They consist of dual, single opening doors. Push one and the other opens too. Both fold flat inward. Companions are 30" wide x 4' high. Focstle bulkhead is 30' long x 5' high. As I envision it, the commpanions project out 2' and are flush with focstle deck above. Dual focstle ladders mount just inside each companion. The focstle deck creates an overhang to protect windows. Each window alternates with ornate cabinet style molded areas. In between these, there are faux pillars to complete the impression carried forth in the small portico, tying the ship together thematically. I see widows protected with similar wooden venetian-style slats like those seen on skylights to protect against bad weather conditions. As I said, this is preliminary, a work in progress. It may be a bit overkill but here's my reasoning. Donald McKay intentionally built the largest merchant vessel in the world. He was definitely making a statement that Boston had arrived as a strong competitor to the New York shipyards. Why not make her ornate as well???

Sorry bro…..I missed it apparently.  
High forecastle ladders on the outside edges, with several companion way entrances just inside of them and a couple windows might do the trick. 
Rob

Edited August 25 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

43 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Sorry bro…..I missed it apparently.  
High forecastle ladders on the outside edges, with several companion way entrances just inside of them and a couple windows might do the trick. 
Rob

Rob,

Specific locations of her focstle companions aren't mentioned for Stag Hound. But, by referencing that water closets were in the after wings of the focstle, that's exactly the same description Mclean used for Flying Fish. And in that write up, he did state that companions were in the wings of the focstle with the water closets before them. Since we're working with such sparse details, I'm reluctant to stray from the little details we have to work with. As for using just a couple windows in a 30 foot span, that just seems to leave a lot of walled in area which would limit lighting sources down below. I will try and sketch this area at 1:96th scale to see how it looks. 

 

[rwiederrich]

11 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Specific locations of her focstle companions aren't mentioned for Stag Hound. But, by referencing that water closets were in the after wings of the focstle, that's exactly the same description Mclean used for Flying Fish. And in that write up, he did state that companions were in the wings of the focstle with the water closets before them. Since we're working with such sparse details, I'm reluctant to stray from the little details we have to work with. As for using just a couple windows in a 30 foot span, that just seems to leave a lot of walled in area which would limit lighting sources down below. I will try and sketch this area at 1:96th scale to see how it looks. 

 

The phrase, “Before them” , means what?

First we have to realize, the access ladders must be either direct center. Because the closets are on either side to allow waste to exit.  Next to the WC’s are the companion ways, maybe a window, then the center ladder.   Could be a window under the ladder too. 
 

Rob

Edited August 25 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

The phrase, “Before them” , means what?

First we have to realize, the access ladders must be either direct center. Because the closets are on either side to allow waste to exit.  Next to the WC’s are the companion ways, maybe a window, then the center ladder.   Could be a window under the ladder too. 
 

Rob

Rob,

I've attached McLean's sort of running description of the one time he refers to crew accomodations being set up in a lower area underneath the focstle deck. This is for McKay's 4th extreme clipper Flying Fish which has the shortest main rail height of any McKay clipper I've ever read at 4 & 1/2' (54"). With a 16" monkey rail, it brings her total bulwarks height to 5'10" (70"). It's this very low main rail height which proves it's impossible to have crew accommodations on the main deck under the focstle. It also tells me that unless the entire windlass is outside of the focstle deck, it too must have been mounted 3' below on the crew quarters deck. 

I have no other goal then to be as faithful to what little documentation we have to accurately reproduce a McKay clipper, whether it's Stag Hound or any other one. 

As far as positions are concerned, I've learned from reading a lot of McLean descriptions is that he tends to describe arrangements backwards. By that I mean from aft forward. When reading his descriptions, I've learned it helps to have an agile mind in order to follow how he reverses directions pretty much continuously in the same article. This can lead to confusion of positions unless you visualize items as he describes them. I'll demonstrate using Flying Fish at first which describes both companions being "in the wings" of the forecastle with water closets before them (not after as current Flying Fish plans have them). Picturing this, it only makes sense if these water closets are 3' down below ahead of the companion ladders to downstairs. With the forecastle deck being mounted at the 4 & 1/2' main rail height, that means the windlass would have to be mounted below too.

At the risk of overkill, using McLean's descriptions of the deck furniture on Stag Hound I'll demonstrate how he constantly reverses directions in his descriptions. 

As he describes the long house behind the foremast, he's basically describing fore to aft "abaft the foremast." He's consistent in describing the poop deck but begins reversing direction as he ends up describing the small square portico in the center of the fore poop deck.

Watch now how he completely reverses from aft to fore as he describes the apartments 3' below the poop deck. He starts at the stern, actually behind the 32' x 13' great room or salon, that's where the largest apartment accommodation for two berths fit for a family resides. First impressions would lead you to conclude all these apartments are inside the 32' × 13' great room. Because McLean never clarifies that they actually surround that room's perimiter. But when he describes that each stateroom has its own decklight and sidelight, that's impossible unless one side is on an outer bulkhead wall. 

In this case, McLean describes each apartment's position from aft to forward, beginning with that large double berth apartment fit for a family. Now watch this: before this there's a watercloset on each side, then a state room, before that a recess of eight feet on each side, then two state rooms. To reinforce this conclusion, I've reposted my 44' Stag Hound poop deck illustration including dashed lines to show the correct positions of all of these apartment elements.

I hope this answers your concerns satisfactorily.

 

 

Edited August 25 by ClipperFan
Delete incorrect reference

[rwiederrich]

Have you considered my forecastle suggestions.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Have you considered my forecastle suggestions.  
 

Rob

Rob,

From what I read and saw, it appears your forecastle ideas are based mostly on Aberdeen Tea Clipper Thermopylae. She's a lovely vessel but from what I see, her focstle bulkhead height is lower, which is why the single entrance companion makes more sense. Here's my thinking about using twin companions and twin ladders. As we've already seen from size comparisons of Glory of the Seas to Cutty Sark, the former dwarfs the latter by a substantial order of magnitude. As we both know, Stag Hound at her launch was the largest merchant ship in the world. From what I can tell, her forecastle bulkhead is about 30 feet wide. Having single companions and focstle ladders strikes me as causing a bottleneck for crew trying to utilize either source. Doesn't it make sense to make access easier by providing twin resources? It also follows the historic layout of Flying Fish the only ship where the placement of port and starboard companions is actually stated. Besides, if you had a single center mounted entrance to quarters below, would't that run into an issue with the patented windlass which also is centrally mounted?

Maybe the idea of waterclosets being before the companions bothers you? In that case, I'll point out that McLean doesn't specify exactly how far ahead of the companions the "heads" are located from the ingress ladders, just that they're before them.  

What's your feeling about the idea of focstle bulkhead windows? Is it too much or does it make sense? If there are windows, my idea is to pattern the fascia after the forward one on the coach house in Glory of the Seas since the span is actually a little larger. It also seems to me that some sort of overhang makes sense to me, maybe just a foot, since bulkhead height is just 5'. However, if the focstle bulkhead is solid, then there's another problem to solve: how does light get 8' downstairs instead? I find the idea of a focstle skylight to be a bit fantastic. Your thoughts?

[rwiederrich]

My thought are……….

The forecastle bulkhead

has ladders on either side….. there is two egress companion ways  and possibly several windows.  This is all balanced between themselves and cabinet work. 
I suggested the Aberdeen Thermopylae as an example for the head of the companion ways on the deck of the forecastle.   The doors have to be short…..so the slide roofs. 
The WC’s are within the depressed forecastle below.  On both sides to accommodate waste disposal.  The example I gave shows a flat bulkhead from port to starboard.  THAT is what I was pointing out.  
 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Remember…. The captains cabin overlook’s the deck, so windows on the forecast are not a no option. They’re on the poop bulkhead.  
 

Rob

Edited August 26 by rwiederrich
R

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

My thought are……….

The forecastle bulkhead

has ladders on either side….. there is two egress companion ways  and possibly several windows.  This is all balanced between themselves and cabinet work. 
I suggested the Aberdeen Thermopylae as an example for the head of the companion ways on the deck of the forecastle.   The doors have to be short…..so the slide roofs. 
The WC’s are within the depressed forecastle below.  On both sides to accommodate waste disposal.  The example I gave shows a flat bulkhead from port to starboard.  THAT is what I was pointing out.  
 

Rob

Rob,

No problem, sliding tops can be added and the entire face can be flat. Companions in the wings suggests to me that they would be outermost, most likely to provide greater space around the windlass below. I see twin ladders just inside the companions. Windows would altrrnate between cabinet style molded panels with each set apart by faux pillars like those seen on the Glory of the Seas coach house front fascia  

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Remember…. The captains cabin overlook’s the deck, so windows on the forecast are not a no option. There on the poop bulkhead.  
 

Rob

Rob,

That's another side affect of McLean's haphazard way of describing ship's components. He's actually moved back to describing the forward cabin abaft the foremast. The Captain's 12' × 18' stateroom actually overlooks the main deck from the starboard aft section of the forward cabin. I've read nothing that says there's windows in the forward poop deck bulkhead. That doesn't mean there weren't any just that none are identified.

[rwiederrich]

The Forward cabin in the poop.   Captain on one side first second officers on the other.  
 

Captains always were in the poop cabin…..never with the crew in the main cabin or forecastle.   
Read the accounts of the captain of the “Wild Boat of the Pacific”, the Dreadnaught…. In , “From Forecastle To Cabin”.  Captains rarely left the poop to go forward.  Mates did that.  

Edited August 26 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

6 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

The Forward cabin in the poop.   Captain on one side first second officers on the other.  
 

Captains always were in the poop cabin…..never with the crew in the main cabin or forecastle.   
Read the accounts of the captain of the “Wild Boat of the Pacific”, the Dreadnaught…. In , “From Forecastle To Cabin”.  Captains rarely left the poop to go forward.  Mates did that.  

Rob,

Until you reminded me, I forgot about the prestige associated with a Captain's advancement to the poop deck cabin. Since the center forward of the poop deck is occupieed by the 8' portico with side opening doors, I would think that area closest to there would be cabinet style panels. Since there's definitely windows and a ladder on each side to consider, I see an alternating arrangement of windows between panels. Is the captain's stateroom the one that's 12' x 18'? If so, then my dotted lines on the poop deck also have to be redone to reflect that on the starboard side. Would each of the 3 mates and steward have their own staterooms or would some be shared? The pantry must be where the smokestack's located too. As the saying goes "back to the drawing board."

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

With Captain's starboard stateroom being 12' wide × 18' long, it makes the beam of Stag Hound at poop deck fore 37'. This calculation is based on a central 13' wide x 32' long great room, most likely a 13' x 20' salon and 13' × 12' pantry. The most sensible arrangement is another 12' wide × 18' set of port staterooms, probably 3 divided equally 6' × 12' for the First, Second and Third Mates. This leaves equal space for 8' recesses on each side. That leaves 6' on each side for 2 more staterooms, one for the Steward another for an unidentified officer. It pushes waterclosets beyond the 32' wall but there's still space available. 

I can fit three 2 & 1/2' wide windows in a row with two 2' wide cabinet molded solid ends. In between would be faux pillars and modest arches similar to the portico. This provides plenty of light for twin staterooms. One outermost window would be behind a ladder on each side. When portico facade is added, it creates a unified impression. Let me know what you think.

[rwiederrich]

I like the idea.  
 

Rob

[Rick310]

Rich, Rob,

In reference to the location of the water closets/ companionways on the Flying Fish, I think the location and design make sense.  Possibly the companionways were up against the aft end of the forecastle, as seen on other ships.  
It doesn’t make sense for the water closets to be below deck where they would be difficult to access for the crew working on deck.  As no one knows for sure, I assume that Ben Langford, Erik Ronnberg, and the others who worked on the 1979 revision of the Flying Fish plans, resorted to placing them in a common location.  Don’t underestimate the knowledge and experience these people brought to this reconstruction.

While each ship was unique as far as hull design, and to some extent, the rigging ,ect.  deck equipment was fairly standard in function and location.

This doesn’t mean that there weren’t differences.

Keep up the good work!!

Rick

 

 

[ClipperFan]

10 hours ago, Rick310 said:

Rich, Rob,

In reference to the location of the water closets/ companionways on the Flying Fish, I think the location and design make sense.  Possibly the companionways were up against the aft end of the forecastle, as seen on other ships.  
It doesn’t make sense for the water closets to be below deck where they would be difficult to access for the crew working on deck.  As no one knows for sure, I assume that Ben Langford, Erik Ronnberg, and the others who worked on the 1979 revision of the Flying Fish plans, resorted to placing them in a common location.  Don’t underestimate the knowledge and experience these people brought to this reconstruction.

While each ship was unique as far as hull design, and to some extent, the rigging ,ect.  deck equipment was fairly standard in function and location.

This doesn’t mean that there weren’t differences.

Keep up the good work!!

Rick

 

 

Rick310,

When reading McLean's description of the forecastle, he mentions that companions in wings of the forecastle lead to the accomodations for one watch of the crew below. At minimum, to be accurate, waterclosets would likely have to be abutted to the forecastle wall with companions on their aft sides. That would at least follow the specific description of the Boston Daily Atlas article. It seems that peculiar arrangement is awkward as hell, so the privies were placed behind a single companion. An arrangement which also doesn't follow the McLean description. To me there are several problems with the current plans. First, a 4 & 1/2' high deck makes underneath 3 & 1/2" lower. Now it's at 4' 2 & 1/2" high. We know this to be a fact since Michael Mjelde shared a document which proved that underneath the forecastle deck on Glory of the Seas was precisely 5 feet 9 inches.

How can anyone do routine maintenance on a windlass stuffed into such a crawl space? The only pragmatic solution is to mount the windlass 3' below. As for having forward privies down below for ordinary sailors, guess where they're located on Stag Hound for the captain and all officers? 8 feet below the poop deck...

To me, it's actually more logical to locate the same privies 8 feet below for the forecastle as well. 

Finally, once it's established that you can't provide sufficient space for a watch of the crew with a 4 foot 9 inch ceiling and you provide accomodations for them 3 feet below, the aft opening to the forecastle must be walled off. And since the area was well lit, lofty and well ventilated, that means windows were also provided. That's how Rob and I are proceeding for the extreme clipper Stag Hound.

[ClipperFan]

On 8/25/2024 at 5:45 PM, rwiederrich said:

Remember…. The captains cabin overlook’s the deck, so windows on the forecast are not a no option. They’re on the poop bulkhead.  
 

Rob

@rwiederrich

It was quicker to modify my existing 44' poop deck to reflect the 7' wider profile than restart the poop deck bulkhead. Dividing 37' in-half results in 18 & 1/2' per side. Half of an 8' portico leaves 2 & 1/2' on each side (of the 13' wide x 32' deep great room beneath) for the first molded division. How the entire area breaks down is this: 2.75' molded area with twin pillars on each side, then 3 equal 3' windows with pillars bordering each side (9') and another 2.75' molded area. 4' + 2.75' + 9' + 2.75' = 18.5' per side x 2 sides = 37'.

As I sketch this out, I will finalize specific break downs for the molded areas as well as windows.

Meanwhile, attached is my revised 44' poop deck incorporating the latest changes we discussed. Starboard on top in the fore is the captains very generous 12' wide x 18' deep stateroom, then the 8' recess and an 8' estimated wide × 6 deep steward's state room, after which is a 6' estimated wide x 4 deep watercloset. On port side. For first mate, there's an 12' wide x 10' deep staterooom, next door is an 10 estimated wide x 8' deep stateroom, followed by an 8' recess and then an 8' estimated wide x 6' deep third mate's stateroom, followed by another 6' estimated wide x 4' deep watercloset. The last double berth apartment occupies the stern. Each room including now both waterclosets, have a deck prism centered above. Sole exception is the captain's which has two, placed exactly opposite those of the first and second mate's staterooms. Side light portholes correspond with prisms on all staterooms with exception of waterclosets which only have deck prisms. One last observation. Two foot wide ladders could be repositioned alongside both outer bulkheads over the molded panel area. That would then provide for all three widows to have clear views. It makes more sense to me, unless there's a pragmatic reason to have a small section of railing before ladder openings that I don't know about. Let me know then.

Edited August 28 by ClipperFan
grammar correction

[rwiederrich]

I like your representation.   Can’t wait to see the front Decor and windows

 

Rob

Edited August 28 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

A Second Buttersworth Painting

@Snug Harbor Johnny shared this fascinating topic with me through messenger. It was such a fascinating topic, I felt it was worth sharing with everyone. I have a feeling Johnny won't mind:

 

https://modelshipworld.com/messenger/42109/

[ClipperFan]

On 8/28/2024 at 8:15 AM, ClipperFan said:

A Second Buttersworth Painting

@Snug Harbor Johnny shared this fascinating topic with me through messenger. It was such a fascinating topic, I felt it was worth sharing with everyone. I have a feeling Johnny won't mind:

 

https://modelshipworld.com/messenger/42109/

This second James E Buttersworth painting is at the Princeton University Art Museum and is 28.8" high  × 35.9" wide. Here's a framed copy which allowed me to zoom in and see details clearer. 

Meanwhile, I took another look at the alternate Time-Life copy, lightened it a bit and edited it to focus on the ship. While sail positions are similar the details aren't. There's subtle differences. The odd poop deck turned rail extensions are gone and now they bracket the poop deck front instead. Interestingly enough, now there's a skylight before the mizzenmast instead. Apparantly, it seems like Buttersworth didn't have an exact description of the deck layout for Stag Hound so he must have guessed.

Buttersworth remains one of my favorite maritime artists but he's not infallible. There's no indication of navel hoods or a noticeable cutwater, her staghound figurehead is barely visible and her hawse hole is overly large. Cutters and lifeboats are too skinny, there's a confusing turned rail extension which goes practically to her main shrouds while her poop deck ends back at the mizzen. Still, it's a lively piece which remains one of my favorites despite all these issues.

Edited August 29 by ClipperFan
added image and notes

[rwiederrich]

Something else is wrong.  She is flying a lower topsails.  Meaning she is rigged with double topsails.  she didn't have this Howes arrangement.  ????????

Or... some tricky re-rigging of her topsail to reduce its overall exposure, by clewing up her reef tackle.  This trick exposes the sail to extreme stress on the reef points on the edge of the sails and doesn't provide proper support along the length of the head of the sail at the yards jackstays.  Interesting depiction.

 

No wonder Forbes and subsequently Howes developed the double topsail.

 

4 yards per mast....interesting.  This would be a great way to depict my Staghound......with the sails just like this......

 

Rob

Edited August 28 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

45 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Something else is wrong.  She is flying a lower topsails.  Meaning she is rigged with double topsails.  she didn't have this Howes arrangement.  ????????

Or... some tricky re-rigging of her topsail to reduce its overall exposure, by clewing up her reef tackle.  This trick exposes the sail to extreme stress on the reef points on the edge of the sails and doesn't provide proper support along the length of the head of the sail at the yards jackstays.  Interesting depiction.

 

No wonder Forbes and subsequently Howes developed the double topsail.

 

4 yards per mast....interesting.  This would be a great way to depict my Staghound......with the sails just like this......

 

Rob

Rob,

This work by Buttersworth always impressed me that there's actually 5 yards depicted. It looks to me like there's 3 sails on fore and main. On fore it's the course, tops'l reefed to its lowest point, then t'gallant yard lowered all the way onto the tops'l while royal and skys'l are already furled tight and lowered. On the main, her course is already furled tight, tops'l reefed like fore and t'gallant dropped to take the wind out of her billowing sail, while royal and skys'l are furled tight and lowered. Mizzen's the same as the main. I read in the Time-Life description that all of this action is because of gale force wind and rain approaching from her fore starboard.

Edited August 28 by ClipperFan
edit

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

This work by Buttersworth always impressed me that there's actually 5 yards depicted. It looks to me like there's 3 sails on fore and main.

Edited August 28 by rwiederrich