Talos

Well yes, multiple ships with the same name.
 
In any case, as the 1831 Boxer was built as a schooner, I had her on the schooner sheet (just like Vixen).
 
EDIT: That top plan you have is likely Enterprise. Chapelle notes some differences from Boxer, including the missing molding under the gunports and the lack of curved rail coming from the head to the knightheads.
 
The closer one to Humphreys' design for Boxer (while not being an exact ancestor) is his 88' brigantine (in my sheet it's the one after the Brigantine based on Dolphin), which was one of a number of small sip designs he made, including studies of schooners between 100' down to 88'.  That Brigantine based on Dolphin is just a simple lengthening of the brig, but it features the correct body plan Dolphin was built to, not the original lines visible in the plans.

I typed the last without my references. Chapelle thought that the unnamed 16-gun brig is Boxer, while the 18-gun was the plans for Saranac and Chippewa, as both were said to have two more guns than their ratings (14 and 16 guns respectively), without filling the bridle ports. These would be powerful brigs, with a pair of long 18s, long 12s, and the rest of their guns being 32-pdr carronades. Sailed well, but they were made of green timber and rotted very quickly.

I...crap, in my overzealous quest to even the two sheets, I must have missed it. I'll update the sheets later and add it. As far as I know, none of the proposed brigs were built, the USN doing it's normal neglect of small ships.

I've been busy and totally slacked on John Adams. Did other ones recently, completing the Bittern Crane, the original Macedonian, Epervier, a gun brig, revenue cutter Morris, and doing work on the second Macedonian, Brandywine, Sabine/Santee, and a few odds and ends.

EDIT: Oh, wait Boxer (as in the later one) is on one of my schooner sheets.

Brigs I actually already have you covered. I did two of them, one sheet for the 1830s ships, one for the older ones. The one I'm most fascinated by is the unbuilt USS Burrows, a large, late brig, over 120 feet long. I'll compare some of the frigate body plans later since I can overlay them easily.

You also have the problem of finding enough commands for the higher ranking officers too. Can't have a Captain commanding a brig, after all. But certainly a large part of it is small fleet syndrome: they'll never have the numerical advantage, so each hull has to be as useful and powerful in that class as they can be. That's a big part of the reason for the 44s in the first place.

You also have the problem of finding enough commands for the higher ranking officers too. Can't have a Captain commanding a brig, after all. But certainly a large part of it is small fleet syndrome: they'll never have the numerical advantage, so each hull has to be as useful and powerful in that class as they can be. That's a big part of the reason for the 44s in the first place.

Grampus is a favorite  of mine, I love her lines. Such an elegant schooner. As far as Boxer and her sisters, they were all converted into brigs. Heavily overloaded with guns and boats, they had a large sail area and were considered tender, but good sailors. That was the case of most of the late US brigs, which all were extreme designs. Two even were lost to capsizing.
 
The Navy never really loved the schooner rig. They tended to buy them when needed and get rid of them quickly. There was always a surge of popularity around wartime, like the War of 1812, but they didn't last long after that. Several were converted to brigs, like Enterprise, Vixen, and Boxer, while others were simply gotten rid of, or lost (they had a higher loss rate than the larger ships). While the brig has several advantages over the schooner, including better performance on a wider range of wind directions, much better ability to cope with battle damage, and more maneuverability, I get the feeling that to the USN, the schooner was never a "proper" navy design. The Navy wasn't really much for small ships anyway, instead purchasing many of them for a specific mission, like the Anti-piracy operations in the Carribean, or anti-slavery patrols for the Africa Squadron (this mission was done by the naval construction ones instead). By the time you get to the 1830s-1840s, the sloop (which has grown larger and larger) is the backbone of the US Navy alongside the heavy frigates of the Brandywine class, pushing out schooners and brigs from above.

Grampus is a favorite  of mine, I love her lines. Such an elegant schooner. As far as Boxer and her sisters, they were all converted into brigs. Heavily overloaded with guns and boats, they had a large sail area and were considered tender, but good sailors. That was the case of most of the late US brigs, which all were extreme designs. Two even were lost to capsizing.
 
The Navy never really loved the schooner rig. They tended to buy them when needed and get rid of them quickly. There was always a surge of popularity around wartime, like the War of 1812, but they didn't last long after that. Several were converted to brigs, like Enterprise, Vixen, and Boxer, while others were simply gotten rid of, or lost (they had a higher loss rate than the larger ships). While the brig has several advantages over the schooner, including better performance on a wider range of wind directions, much better ability to cope with battle damage, and more maneuverability, I get the feeling that to the USN, the schooner was never a "proper" navy design. The Navy wasn't really much for small ships anyway, instead purchasing many of them for a specific mission, like the Anti-piracy operations in the Carribean, or anti-slavery patrols for the Africa Squadron (this mission was done by the naval construction ones instead). By the time you get to the 1830s-1840s, the sloop (which has grown larger and larger) is the backbone of the US Navy alongside the heavy frigates of the Brandywine class, pushing out schooners and brigs from above.

Well yes, multiple ships with the same name.
 
In any case, as the 1831 Boxer was built as a schooner, I had her on the schooner sheet (just like Vixen).
 
EDIT: That top plan you have is likely Enterprise. Chapelle notes some differences from Boxer, including the missing molding under the gunports and the lack of curved rail coming from the head to the knightheads.
 
The closer one to Humphreys' design for Boxer (while not being an exact ancestor) is his 88' brigantine (in my sheet it's the one after the Brigantine based on Dolphin), which was one of a number of small sip designs he made, including studies of schooners between 100' down to 88'.  That Brigantine based on Dolphin is just a simple lengthening of the brig, but it features the correct body plan Dolphin was built to, not the original lines visible in the plans.

Well yes, multiple ships with the same name.
 
In any case, as the 1831 Boxer was built as a schooner, I had her on the schooner sheet (just like Vixen).
 
EDIT: That top plan you have is likely Enterprise. Chapelle notes some differences from Boxer, including the missing molding under the gunports and the lack of curved rail coming from the head to the knightheads.
 
The closer one to Humphreys' design for Boxer (while not being an exact ancestor) is his 88' brigantine (in my sheet it's the one after the Brigantine based on Dolphin), which was one of a number of small sip designs he made, including studies of schooners between 100' down to 88'.  That Brigantine based on Dolphin is just a simple lengthening of the brig, but it features the correct body plan Dolphin was built to, not the original lines visible in the plans.

I typed the last without my references. Chapelle thought that the unnamed 16-gun brig is Boxer, while the 18-gun was the plans for Saranac and Chippewa, as both were said to have two more guns than their ratings (14 and 16 guns respectively), without filling the bridle ports. These would be powerful brigs, with a pair of long 18s, long 12s, and the rest of their guns being 32-pdr carronades. Sailed well, but they were made of green timber and rotted very quickly.

I...crap, in my overzealous quest to even the two sheets, I must have missed it. I'll update the sheets later and add it. As far as I know, none of the proposed brigs were built, the USN doing it's normal neglect of small ships.

I've been busy and totally slacked on John Adams. Did other ones recently, completing the Bittern Crane, the original Macedonian, Epervier, a gun brig, revenue cutter Morris, and doing work on the second Macedonian, Brandywine, Sabine/Santee, and a few odds and ends.

EDIT: Oh, wait Boxer (as in the later one) is on one of my schooner sheets.

The 1815 Brig USS Boxer may have been one of the two unnamed brigs shown above. The unnamed 18-gun brig has the unusual feature of having ten broadside ports, plus a bridle port. Makes her look quite powerful! The only other brig so equipped was the 1803 Argus, as rebuilt in 1811, when they added an extra pair of ports and carronades.

I...crap, in my overzealous quest to even the two sheets, I must have missed it. I'll update the sheets later and add it. As far as I know, none of the proposed brigs were built, the USN doing it's normal neglect of small ships.

I've been busy and totally slacked on John Adams. Did other ones recently, completing the Bittern Crane, the original Macedonian, Epervier, a gun brig, revenue cutter Morris, and doing work on the second Macedonian, Brandywine, Sabine/Santee, and a few odds and ends.

EDIT: Oh, wait Boxer (as in the later one) is on one of my schooner sheets.

Very very interesting to see the USS John Adams and the 24 gun ship of 1799 compared! I saw the new reconstructed plan awhile ago, but didn't realize how similar they are until seeing the lineup. I based my in-progress plan of the cut down & lengthened Adams off the 24 gunner-which I do still intend to finish-I've just been incredibly busy with school. I chose the plan for exactly the reasons above-it's the best plan we have of a typical American 6th rate of the period, and the Adams was supposed to be too fine-lined as a 28. Does anyone know how similar the adams & John adams might've been in their lines?

Talos has there been any progress on the plan for John Adams after sloop of war conversion?
 
And wow look at those sloops! Were some of those conjectural brigs used? I don't see Boxer among those listed.

I’ve been fascinated with those two particular plans for a while. I included them in one of my profile comparisons, alongside the privateer Rattlesnake and the (incorrect!) Cyane.
 
The 18-gun one is just so weird, compared to the warships I’m used to seeing. More merchant-like for sure, but still too sharp to be a civilian one, too big for an illegal trader. Chapelle argues that she must be a naval or merchant-cruiser. He also suggests that it was a design by Fox because of the nature of her stem.
 
As far as the 20, it’s got the appearance of the typical American frigates of the era. Looking at the plans of John Adams and this ship, they’re virtually identical above the waterline except for size. Chapelle suggests that it was a design for an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, nearly identical dimensions but with fewer guns and higher gunports to correct the guns on the earlier ships being very low. He also compares the ship to the Brazen-class Cyane post ship, which had more guns on the main deck, but 6pdrs instead of 9pdrs, and was the better sailor because it wasn't as overloaded until the War of 1812 when it carried 32 guns instead. I’ve pointed it out before, but I will again, but Chapelle got the wrong Cyane plans when he sent for them. The ones in the book are the older 18-gun Bittern-class sloop Cyane, not the 26-gun Brazen-class Cyane the Americans captured. Thinking it was the War of 1812 ship, he refitted the drawing with solid bulwarks like most ships of the era received. That’s the plan I have in the comparison I’m linking.
 
As far as the other ships go, Chapelle points out that everything in this era down to sloops tended to be shrunken versions of the 44s, at least above-water style-wise. You can see that comparing John Adams and the 20-gun ship. As long as you get the proportions and dimensions right, you can probably do a fair amount basing off of the 20-gun, Constitution/Constellation/Chesapeake, and the Philly, New York, Boston, and Essex.

Brigs I actually already have you covered. I did two of them, one sheet for the 1830s ships, one for the older ones. The one I'm most fascinated by is the unbuilt USS Burrows, a large, late brig, over 120 feet long. I'll compare some of the frigate body plans later since I can overlay them easily.

Well, Chapelle was guessing that the 20-gun ship is an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, soooo..... Merrimack should be pretty easy to do a generic Federal frigate of the era on her dimensions. I'm not sure on the other ships since I have to do some research on them first.
 
And yeah, I do the diagrams because it adds a lot to me too. Really puts things in perspective and makes it easy to compare. If there's any particular ships through Chapelle's books that you want to see lined up, let me know, I have many of them scanned already.

I’ve been fascinated with those two particular plans for a while. I included them in one of my profile comparisons, alongside the privateer Rattlesnake and the (incorrect!) Cyane.
 
The 18-gun one is just so weird, compared to the warships I’m used to seeing. More merchant-like for sure, but still too sharp to be a civilian one, too big for an illegal trader. Chapelle argues that she must be a naval or merchant-cruiser. He also suggests that it was a design by Fox because of the nature of her stem.
 
As far as the 20, it’s got the appearance of the typical American frigates of the era. Looking at the plans of John Adams and this ship, they’re virtually identical above the waterline except for size. Chapelle suggests that it was a design for an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, nearly identical dimensions but with fewer guns and higher gunports to correct the guns on the earlier ships being very low. He also compares the ship to the Brazen-class Cyane post ship, which had more guns on the main deck, but 6pdrs instead of 9pdrs, and was the better sailor because it wasn't as overloaded until the War of 1812 when it carried 32 guns instead. I’ve pointed it out before, but I will again, but Chapelle got the wrong Cyane plans when he sent for them. The ones in the book are the older 18-gun Bittern-class sloop Cyane, not the 26-gun Brazen-class Cyane the Americans captured. Thinking it was the War of 1812 ship, he refitted the drawing with solid bulwarks like most ships of the era received. That’s the plan I have in the comparison I’m linking.
 
As far as the other ships go, Chapelle points out that everything in this era down to sloops tended to be shrunken versions of the 44s, at least above-water style-wise. You can see that comparing John Adams and the 20-gun ship. As long as you get the proportions and dimensions right, you can probably do a fair amount basing off of the 20-gun, Constitution/Constellation/Chesapeake, and the Philly, New York, Boston, and Essex.

Brigs I actually already have you covered. I did two of them, one sheet for the 1830s ships, one for the older ones. The one I'm most fascinated by is the unbuilt USS Burrows, a large, late brig, over 120 feet long. I'll compare some of the frigate body plans later since I can overlay them easily.

Yeah I imagine it's matter of knowing builders inclinations, taking known dimensions and then knowing what was the fashion of the time and putting it all together. Canney also suggests the plan might also be of Merrimack or at the very least a very similar example which with a bit of imagination could come together as a nice model. Talos I'd love to see the brings lined up, specifically a lot of the ones from 1830 onwards when brigs became less of a staple in the fleet, so Boxer, Perry and Lawrence for examples. I've been looking at those old Bluejacket kits that exist of Boxer and Perry one day I'd like to build those so finding those ships of particular interest at the moment.
 
So that said I suppose I should ask what were the identifiable traits to a Fox plan or a Humphrey's plan? Or Hackett or Griece? I imagine there is a design evolution that each follow on their own way (of course some of them were specific to the time they lived) but that'd actually be pretty cool to see how the plans from each builder evolved over the years and what each builder brought to style and structure (sleek or bulky lines, more/less traditional). Interesting stuff!

Well, Chapelle was guessing that the 20-gun ship is an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, soooo..... Merrimack should be pretty easy to do a generic Federal frigate of the era on her dimensions. I'm not sure on the other ships since I have to do some research on them first.
 
And yeah, I do the diagrams because it adds a lot to me too. Really puts things in perspective and makes it easy to compare. If there's any particular ships through Chapelle's books that you want to see lined up, let me know, I have many of them scanned already.

Hello everyone! I would like to take a quick moment to discuss the unidentified 20 gun ship referenced in Chapelle's book. It is used as an example of what some of the subscription and Contracted sloops of 1798 may have looked like. That said it gets a little confusing to me so would like to defer to the great collective wisdoms of this site for clarity.
 
So first off we have the 3 ships Merrimack, Maryland and Chesapeake (which was renamed to Patapsco). All were around 24 guns and all seemed to have quarterdecks. Donald Canney and Chapelle seem to point to the plans below as being a similar example to these ships but can't be them because the plans are dated 1799. We then have ships built by private contractors Connecticut, Portsmouth, Warren and Trumbull. The first seem to be 24 gun sloops while the latter are 20 gun. There was also a brig named Richmond. Descriptions of their carvings have been recorded to varying levels of completeness but no plans however we can assume they were of similar ilk.
 
That's the easy part, next we have a bunch of ships which appear to be purchases.  These ships are the General Washington, Montezuma, Ganges, Adriana renamed Baltimore, another renamed Delaware, Herald and two brigs named Norfolk and Augusta. Of these ships it seems that the General Washington was the largest and most impressive. Also many of the others share commonalities to merchant ships and were likely conversions. Chapelle offers a second plan of a through deck sloop with merchant-like qualities of 18 guns which based on dimensions and design I am assuming could represent what some of these ships looked like.
 
All these ships were essentially replaced in 1801 when the superior(?) Federal and subscription frigates were put into service.
This period is fascinating since so little is known about it (much less than even the subscription era that came afterwards). So let's say one wanted to build a model based off these two plans or of some of these aforementioned sloop (mini-frigates?) how would one go about it? By this I mean lets say I wanted to build Merrimack, Patapsco or Maryland one day using the figure 22 plans as a guide is there enough info to do so? Same with figure 23 could any of the merchant ships look most like that one if any? Could the Warren or Trumbull which had no quarterdeck be examples of such a ship. This is of course all conjectural I'm trying to determine what ships have a decent amount of information preserved vs those which have none.  So lets discuss

Yeah Talos great help with the explanations and diagrams thank you. Seeing them lined up adds so much perspective. That's what Im thinking though some of the ships (as long as the dimensions and ornamentations have been recorded) could be recreated as reasonably accurate models if one chose to do so since they followed that shrunken 44 design for the most part. Id say replicating Merrimack, Maryland or Patapsco is possible (I forget what info exists for which) (paging sir frolick), but then you have other ships like General Washington or Montezuma where replication is probably impossible unless you are John Millar and have that gift lol. But also if you wanted to lets say use these two plans to build two ship models and give them names according to the aforementioned ships which would work best and why in your opinions?