Talos

I'd love to get my hands on details for those (up to draughts) to redraw them and modify them to illustrate those variations. They sound fascinating.
 
Currently working on redrawing HMS Macedonian.
 

I'd love to get my hands on details for those (up to draughts) to redraw them and modify them to illustrate those variations. They sound fascinating.
 
Currently working on redrawing HMS Macedonian.
 

I don't have any specific answers for Lexington, but the hull style on the left, without the navy head and with the poop deck really reminds me of the schooner Marblehead on a larger scale.
 

I was trying to track down the provenance of the model, all I was able to find was an auction listing for it from a couple years ago. I agree with Wayne and think it's much more modern than contemporary.
 
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/20653622_quality-model-of-the-frigate-boston

I don't have any specific answers for Lexington, but the hull style on the left, without the navy head and with the poop deck really reminds me of the schooner Marblehead on a larger scale.
 

I was trying to track down the provenance of the model, all I was able to find was an auction listing for it from a couple years ago. I agree with Wayne and think it's much more modern than contemporary.
 
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/20653622_quality-model-of-the-frigate-boston

I was trying to track down the provenance of the model, all I was able to find was an auction listing for it from a couple years ago. I agree with Wayne and think it's much more modern than contemporary.
 
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/20653622_quality-model-of-the-frigate-boston

Thanks, Charlie. I was waiting to do the larger plans like most of the frigates and all the ships of the line, because they were spread across two pages. Last month I got a cheap, old copy of the book to take apart. Because of the discussion here, I finally got around to doing it, should start working on a frigate drawing soon, probably the base Santee. Speaking of the Constellation, this makes me want to see how she looks wth a second deck like Macedonian had originally. Twelve feet longer (a foot longer than the 44s), she should be able to carry the armament of a 36-gun frigate well. Hmm....must draw.
 
@Wayne: Nice. Thanks for that. Is there any mention of Royal Sovereign's plans in there? Chapelle mentions him having a copy of that draught too.

Ah, alright, thanks frolick. I wasn't sure what state Columbia had been left in. I presume she was pretty much boarded over and sealed up for the ten years until launching?
 
And yeah, I was thinking about the quarter galleries when I wrote that. Sorry, really need to not post that early in the morning, I'm not a morning person! I wasn't thinking of the "balcony", which was being removed from many ships at the time anyway. I believe Victory had her's off in a refit well before Trafalger.
 
@Charlie: Any US frigate that doesn't start with Con- doesn't get any love at all. Not just the Potomac/Brandywines (which I love for the round stern, it really stands out. Potomac excepted, of course), but the wartime Java-class that was mentioned in another thread. Also the final pair, Santee and Sabine, which were the only US 44s outside of the rebuilt Congress to have any real length changes, both being stretched 15 feet during construction.
 
Speaking of those two, whenever I get around to redrawing the draught in Chapelle's book of Santee, I want to do a version replicating Sabine as well, which had the original rake to her stem and stern that the older ships had (Santee's were both reduced when she was constructed, while Sabine's were the same as the oddball St Lawrence's). Chapelle mentioned a host of coversion proposals I'd like to do side views of, including additional stretches and cutting them down into huge corvettes. I also had in mind seeing what they would look converted into steamers. Anyone got any more information on proposals for those two? Especially any additional conversions I didn't touch on.

That sounds great Talos!  I would definitely like to see what notes you come up with when you get to replicating those ships.  The poor Santee. Lasted as a training ship along with Constitution for so many years, yet no one thought of preserving her.  It's true that other than Essex and the sloop Constellation, other than revolutionary ships not much love is given to the American frigates though sounds like we all plan on changing that   I like the Java class as well.  It's all part of an evolutionary line that began with Constitution and ended with Congress it all fits together and the evolution of design is quite fascinating.  I'd love to see conjectures of what might have been had the sailing frigate kept evolving in a world with no ironclads.

Following are notes on the Pennsylvania and the Santisima Trinidad in the Humphreys notebook (date to sometime after 1829)
 
Dimensions of the Santissima Trinidad, Spanish three decker – in English measure.
Length between perpendiculars 204 feet 9 inches, beam moulded 54 feet
 
Tonnage of Ship of the Line Pennsylvania Made out for Comm Stewart- June 1829
Keel for Tonnage Custom House Measurement 183 feet
Beam for Do Do Do 57 ft 9
Burthen in tons Custom House Measurement 3212 18/95 (say 3241 tons corrected tonnage)
Burthen in Tons Sheer carpenters (old) measurement 2940 83/95 Tons
Length between perpendiculars from the aft side of Rabbet of Stem to fore side of Rabbet of post at crossbeam 210 feet
Deduct Thickness of apron & Transom 3 feet 6 inches will leave the length of Gun deck 206 feet 6 inches.
Length of Spar Deck 220 feet 8 inches Tread of the deck.
Length between perpendiculars 210 feet
Beam moulded 56 ft 9
Depth of Hold 22 ft 3
Length of Keel Carpenters tonnage 173 feet 6 inches
Beam Do Do 56 feet 9 inches

Ah, alright, thanks frolick. I wasn't sure what state Columbia had been left in. I presume she was pretty much boarded over and sealed up for the ten years until launching?
 
And yeah, I was thinking about the quarter galleries when I wrote that. Sorry, really need to not post that early in the morning, I'm not a morning person! I wasn't thinking of the "balcony", which was being removed from many ships at the time anyway. I believe Victory had her's off in a refit well before Trafalger.
 
@Charlie: Any US frigate that doesn't start with Con- doesn't get any love at all. Not just the Potomac/Brandywines (which I love for the round stern, it really stands out. Potomac excepted, of course), but the wartime Java-class that was mentioned in another thread. Also the final pair, Santee and Sabine, which were the only US 44s outside of the rebuilt Congress to have any real length changes, both being stretched 15 feet during construction.
 
Speaking of those two, whenever I get around to redrawing the draught in Chapelle's book of Santee, I want to do a version replicating Sabine as well, which had the original rake to her stem and stern that the older ships had (Santee's were both reduced when she was constructed, while Sabine's were the same as the oddball St Lawrence's). Chapelle mentioned a host of coversion proposals I'd like to do side views of, including additional stretches and cutting them down into huge corvettes. I also had in mind seeing what they would look converted into steamers. Anyone got any more information on proposals for those two? Especially any additional conversions I didn't touch on.

I have that monograph, it’s a really excellent one. There’s a section devoted in the beginning of it devoted to that. As I recall, he had the draught of a similar-size East Indiaman from the same area and another larger one. The gallery is pretty large. I wonder if some of that is the legacy of the larger ship he was working off of. Even if is that size, would they have gone to the expense and time to reduce or remove it during her refit? Would JPJ’s ego have allowed it?
 
With Columbia, that’s pretty early in her construction. I’m not sure what percentage she was at in 1827 and how she was suspended at until her completion in the 1830s. I wonder if he meant the rake of the bow. We know this was variable, with Santee having much reduced stem and stern post rake.

The Essex was thought to have been built on the design of the Alliance, as the same family built both twenty years apart.
 
It may surprise many to learn that not one single line survives for the Bon Homme Richard, just dimensions. That beautiful Ancre monograph is entirely a reconstruction by Jean Boudriot based on French East India Company practice. I've always had a problem with the stern, with its huge gallery. It's OK for the Indiaman Duc De Duras (Duck De Donald? ), but it most certainly would have been removed or simplified in its conversion to a man of war. And I definitely disagree with the placement of the six extra gun-ports cut into the lower deck for the 18-pounders. I believe they all would have been in close line with each other, and placed as far back as they could be fitted.
 
The only known deviation of the USS Columbia from her sisters is described in a letter by Humphries written to William Bainbridge in 1827. The only difference was in her "upper bow", in so much as she was "less full than the others". But no explanation was given. Did Humphries mean that the stem-post was smaller, with less of an overhang, (called "the flam of the stem", i.e., the Raritan having a huge flam), or was he referring to the hull lines being less bluff in the upper bows than did the others? (See Donald L. Canney, "Sailing Warships Of The US Navy, Naval Institute Press, page 70.)

You're right, I didn't specify that Warren was finished. She was burned though and never captured. I doubt her lines were ever taken off. I wouldn't be surprised if Providence had her lines taken off when she was surveyed. I'll keep poking aroun NMM, that's probably the best place to start.
 
With Columbia it's less that things weren't regimented and more that she was comissioned over a decade after the earlier ships in her class and Raritan was comissioned in the 1840s. Detail style changes in that time period, for instance Raritan has a fully-enclosed, redesigned bow compared to Brandywine. St Lawrence differed in details and Sabine/Santee were stretched before completion.
 
With John Adams make sure it's Humphreys' design with the transom and quarter galleries. Doughty had a round stern and galleries, while Barker just had a plain round stern.
 
Boston was coppered in Halifax after she was captured in 1780, if she ever had her lines taken off that would be the most likely time.

Interesting thread! I’ll add a bit that I’ve noticed poking around in Chapelle and some other sources.
 
Alliance – Chapelle lists her as little-known and matching most closely to Confederacy. She’s three feet shorter and half a foot narrower beam. Warren – Chapelle says that she was to be a Randolph class, but the plans never made it in time and she was built to a local design. Because she was burned before capture, the RN never took her lines off either and there probably aren’t plans that survived. Don’t have anything on Trumbull, she wasn’t taken into RN service, but Providence was surveyed in 1780, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there are plans for her around. Boston – The lines in Chapelle are for the 1748 ship. Unlike Cyane, these aren’t mislabeled and they match the decoration and design of a ship from that period. Rif Winfield has her in his British Warships in the Age of Sail – 1714-1792. He states she was a lengthened 1745 Establishment 6th rate, built as HMS America. Moved to the UK in 1750, renamed Boston in 1756, and sold the next year. John Adams – With the rebuild, remember that there are three designs used for those sloops. Chapelle lists John Adams as being on the same design as Vandalia, which he asserts was built to Humphries’ draught. I was researching them for my US sloops thread over in the plans subforum. I’m linking two things I did in that thread. In the Excel spreadsheet, the stuff on the left is based on Chapelle’s work, the right column is Paul Silverstone’s The Sailing Navy 1775-1854. The other is a comparison of the different sloop designs of the period, the three 24-gun sloops are the 5th, 6th, and 7th from the top. http://i.imgur.com/0ClOD6Y.jpg http://i.imgur.com/IYHOPxs.jpg Columbia – We have the base draught of the Brandywine/Potomac-class frigate, a detailed drawing of her round stern timbers, and Raritan, commissioned in the 1840s. Decoration details between the two differ due to the tastes of the times, but we can extrapolate a 1830s Columbia from them, the basic lines are still the same. Potomac was built with a conventional transom. Pennsylvania – Chapelle states Humphreys had plans for Santisima Trinidad and Collingwood’s Royal Sovereign. He mentions that the initial design for Pennsylvania’s original design had a small beakhead bulkhead like those two older ships, while the final design had a round bow. I presume that the Lafayette, if it was a predecessor to Pennsylvania/based on Trinidad, would have that detail too. Philadelphia – I recall the draught for Philly in Chapelle is based on a later redrawing of the original draught with anachronistic War of 1812-style details. There’s another draught of her in Naval Documents related to the United States Wars with the Barbary Powers that tripp mentioned above, along with other ships of the period like the second Boston.

You're right, I didn't specify that Warren was finished. She was burned though and never captured. I doubt her lines were ever taken off. I wouldn't be surprised if Providence had her lines taken off when she was surveyed. I'll keep poking aroun NMM, that's probably the best place to start.
 
With Columbia it's less that things weren't regimented and more that she was comissioned over a decade after the earlier ships in her class and Raritan was comissioned in the 1840s. Detail style changes in that time period, for instance Raritan has a fully-enclosed, redesigned bow compared to Brandywine. St Lawrence differed in details and Sabine/Santee were stretched before completion.
 
With John Adams make sure it's Humphreys' design with the transom and quarter galleries. Doughty had a round stern and galleries, while Barker just had a plain round stern.
 
Boston was coppered in Halifax after she was captured in 1780, if she ever had her lines taken off that would be the most likely time.

Greetings everyone! I wanted to start a post to discuss certain historical ships where information is sketchy and as far as I can tell no plans or diagrams exist. This is an opportunity to pool together resources if you happen to know of plans or details and resource info for some of the ships mentioned please join in and offer what you've got. Specifically the ships in question I've listed below.  Feel free to add more content or correct any inaccuracies to the info as this list is by no means complete just all I could think of off the top of my head. Also not putting down ships which were never completed.
 
-Alliance 1778 35 gun sister to the Confederacy
 
-Warren 1776 32 gun Randolph class
 
-Providence 1776 28 gun
-Trumbull 1776 28 gun both were captured by RN so wonder if plans were taken?
 
-Delaware and Boston 24 gun ships taken by RN (there is a plan is Chapelle's book figure 4 dates 1748. I am wondering if this is the correct plan for this Boston)
 
-Lexington 1775 brig (I have seen models and plans of this ship but are they based on actual plans taken by the RN after capture?)
 
-Congress 1799 38 guns while Humphrey's plan for the Constellation/Congress survives and a sail plan from national archives but do plans/details exist for the specific ship as built? 
 
-Enterprise 1799 brig this topic has been discussed before
-Experiment 1799 brig sister to the Enterprise
 
-John Adams 1799 frigate broken up in 1830 then according to Howard Chapelle rebuilt as a Boston/Vincennes class sloop of war. To my knowledge no plans exist of either incarnation of this ship
 
-Adams 1799 28 gun frigate
 
-General Greene 1799 28 gun frigate
 
-Columbia 1836 Potomac class frigate
 
That's most of them though no doubt there are more, such as shame much of the info of these ships has been lost to history especially since quite a few of them had rather impressive careers like the Alliance or John Adams. I am also noticing that even with ships where plans exist I see no stern or billet details for ships like New York, Boston or Philadelphia in Chapelle's books.  I'm wondering if he just didn't include them or are there no records of those details via the official plans in the national archives. Since models have been built of Philadelphia etc. I assume they were. Thanks and happy hunting
 
Charlie

Very good Talos! I re-read and realize Trumbull was too greatly damaged to be taken into RN service, do wonder about the Providence having lines taken by RN though.  Alliance I'd love to know what the carving details were like.  I imagine similar overall to Confederacy but with it's own distinction.  Warren I think you may have confused with Washington which was never finished.  Warren supposedly took a few prizes before burned.  Columbia I imagine it would be similar to other ships of the Potomac class diagrams from Chapelle's books I imagine newer ships didn't vary as much in details as they had fewer carvings and building was more regimented.  I did find the plan for the later John Adams in my Donald Canney book the older one is supposedly in a book written by P.C. Coker about Charleston I've yet to check out.
 
Thanks for clearing up the confusion with the Boston, wonder if the ship from 1776 had lines taken.
 
And Modeler12 I did look over the Royal Museum of Greenwich archives though didn't see much.  Providence may have been renamed not sure.

I was poking around NMM earlier today looking for Providence, but didn't find anything yet in the short time I looked. Of those ones listed, from Rif Winfield's book:
 
Providence kept her name, surveyed in 1780 and sold in 1784.
 
Raleigh kept her name, sold in 1783.
 
Confederacy was renamed Confederate, purchased in 1781, sold the next year without being comissioned.
 
Trumbull kept her name, wasn't taken into service by the RN.
 
Boston was renamed Charlestown by the British, sold in 1783.
 
Delaware kept her name, sold in 1783.
 
Nothing on Lexington after her capture in Winfield, but Silverstone lists her crew as retaking her at sea.

Matti, I did a little more looking around as well.  The elaborate shapes you drew seem to be on larger ships, and, it must be said, on ships farther in the background of the pictures.
Talos, I don't think it is perspective, I think the double curves are accurate.  I think a stern gallery that followed the roundup of the deck would appear in the aft view as two arcs, one top, one bottom.  Since the stern of the ship rakes aft, and is not rounded aft, if the gallery followed that rake, there would be no reason for a double curve to appear 'by accident'.

I also think it's a design, not the perspective.
 
I think it may have been designed like that on ships in different sized ship aswell, at least variants of it. Speculations only of course, but I see no reason why not. 
 
Actually they are pretty close up, especially the top left one. The smaller size of the top right is because of the small picture I found. The images are in different sizes. Here is the top right one uncut:
 

 
Still I'd like to make the gallery more simple, Partly as it would make it more in tone with the ship lines and I also want to make Gripen a more basic ship.
 
I got a feeling that simpler lines would feel more like late 1500 and less early 1600. That's just how I feel though.

First off, excellent thread. I just had a great time reading through it.
 
With the gallery profile on the left, i wonder how much of the angle on the quarters is perspective though. The center is pretty much a simple arc, but I don't know if the outboard portions rise as much as your sketch in post #71.