ClipperFan

Rob, If you felt in anyway offended by my remarks, I truly apologize. That wasn't what I meant to imply. I know how serious a modeler you are. I was honestly shocked at your initial reaction. My intent was to try to present an alternative interpretation. For the record, I'm not a hunter and own no guns

@Jared your shrouds do indeed look quite uniform and well spaced.

@druxey @rwiederrich had a fairly visceral reaction which was entirely unexpected. My more muted response to portraying a leaping stag as a central stern motif is it struck me as a logical contretemps to a leaping stag hound figurehead on the bow. It may perhaps also be due to my exposure to highly ornate carvings seen in West Germany on our everyday furniture. Our parents had a rented 3 story apartment in Mainz, Gönsenheim. Included was this massive highly decorated cherry wood dining room cabinet. It was festooned with living and dead animals. Sounds grotesque but actually it was done with such high skill and naturalistic portrayal that it wasn't offensive. Above and along the upper sections were foxes, squirrels, chipmunks and birds all interspersed between oak leaves, acorns, grapes and other foliage. There were even animals facing eachother on part of the level surface. On the lower section, adorning the outer edges on one side dangled a hare hanging by its bound feet. Balancing the other end was a similar hanging pheasant. All of this was supported by ball and claw legs that were so lifelike, my imagination could see the massive feet just walking towards me! Such portrayals are routinely seen on Bavarian Cuckoo Clocks as well. So to me, showing a deer high tailing it away, at least continued a story begun on the bow. It just seems logical. In fact other devices could be other dogs. pheasants or foxes etc. It could all be tastefully done to portray the hunting abilities of the stag hound.

Wow! Rob, it didn't even occur to me to think this was such a controversial issue or get this rise from you. I just thought it was a "Woodsy" Scottish thing. In Scotland a Deerhound was often referred to as a Staghound, almost as if it were interchangeable. More than one contemporary painting depicts these canines chasing deer too. You might just be applying 21st century sensitivities to 19th century decorative standards. In addition, Cornelius McKay's own handwritten notes specifically refer to a "stag hound" figurehead but a stag on the stern. My thought was exactly opposite of yours. To me it's logical that the stern counter would depict the quarry that has the stag hound so aroused to give chase. I agree with Druxey's observation, "other devices" could easily mean more dogs giving chase as they usually hunted in packs. Regardless, if you just want to depict stag hounds alone, I don't think anyone else will call you out on that.

@rwiederrich here's the extent (such as it is) of Scotsman Duncan McLean's less than lavish description of the stern ornamentation on Staghound: "A stag, her name and other devices, neatly executed, ornament her stern. Mr. Gleason, a young artist of much promise, made her carved work." In this case, I see dead center, an antler bearing male deer (stag) in a prancing motion similar to the idea of John Deer logo, head facing left. Surrounding him would be curling acanthus leaves, very ornate surrounding lettering like was on the stern on Glory of the Seas. Here's some examples. This is the original 1876 John Deere logo. A photo of a leaping deer and a sample of acanthus leave carving. I see the leaping stag as a counterpart to the leaping canine figurehead. Herbert Gleason is the artist who 19 years later carved the magnificent, very lifelike Grecian goddess Athene figurehead on Glory of the Seas. In Spring 1851 McLean, quite impressed with the trumpet bearing winged angel on Flying Cloud mentioned that Mr. Gleason had previously carved the longbowman figurehead on the clipper Morning Star.

Rob, Did Mike say under what circumstances she might have been saved? Dashing Wave was a guess based on the stern. I forgot Benj F Packard was out on the Pacific coast. She too had a long life and was finally decomissioned in 1927. There were hopes of turning her into a museum ship. Instead she ended her days as a pseudo pirate ship at Playland Amusement Park. Rye, NY. Sadly the 1938 Hurricane led to her ultimate demise.

@rwiederrich thanks for sharing these images. As a fan of Donald McKay's wondrously beautiful ships, it breaks my heart to see his spectacular last clipper Glory of the Seas treated so shabbily in her later years. The image of her being towed with her masts no longer aligned as she's basically doing yeoman's work as a floating factory salmon processor is in a way just so depressing. If only her owners showed just a little more concern to maintain her muntz metal protection, she might still be with us today. The second scene is apparently when she was laid up during a shipping recession. She appears to possibly lying 2nd to the valiant Dashing Wave which is first. You can get a sense of how deep her hull is by the long, long port side gangway with a boat at the end. Still Glory of the Seas looks real proper with her rig intact. That last painting, for some reason appears to be a bit difficult to capture the accurate shades but it's nice to see it again.

Rob, It would be a pleasure to finally meet in person.

Rob, Should you do, give me enough advanced notice. I'll make arrangements for a return visit to see and probably touch the figurehead Athene at Hyland-Granby Antiques, Hyannis Port, Cape Cod, MA and Russ Jinishian's magnificent maritime art gallery just down the road from Mystic in Stonington, CT. There's also the stunning Captain Nate Palmer House with another nice collection of nice scale clipper ship models too. Then again, no trip to New England can be complete without considering a visit to the venerable Frigate USS Constitution "Old Ironsides." Just keep me posted.

Rob, Oh yeah, on that we agree. Try as I might, I still can't find any system that was used to prevent water ingestion. I just know that there must have been something.

Rob, Seriously, not to be a royal pain in the **** but the bulkheads of Staghound were pearl, relieved with white and she had blue waterways.

@Jared the word "painstaking" comes to mind when I look at such carefully detaied work. If it helps any, this is mighty impressive work.

@Rick310 Thanks for the further update. Looking at the spectacularly life-like sail and rigging results, I can see where input of a veteran sailor would be immensely helpful. I also mean not to disparage the reputation of captain Arthur Clark. After all, McKay's own son Cornelius had great respect for the man. As for hull ventilators to prevent dry rot, that's such a significant issue, I've got to believe just like salting this had to be standard practice on all wooden vessels. Now, I wonder since they were brass would they have been left natural and polished for routine maintenance or painted to match the hull?

@Rick310 I'll have to see when we can get down there. It's about 1 & 1/2 hour drive but my family has a crazy work schedule. If I can take pics with my cell phone, I'll let you know.

@Rick310 I had no idea Ed's spectacular, finished Young America would go on display at Mystic Seaport. Do you have any knowledge as to when she'd be on display or if Ed will make an appearance too? In 2015 I took pictures of her when she and her smaller plank on bulkhead sister were just finished hulls. I met Ed then and was able to get a copy of volume 1 of his book. The others had tet to be written then. A nicer, more humble guy you couldn't meet. It would be a thrill to see his finished replica in person.

Yesterday, Vlad sent us his latest progress on his cad files to create a wooden plank on bulkhead kit, similar to Blue Jacket's Flying Fish. Vladimir's supplier can reproduce these in 1:96th scale (roughly 2'4" at 226') or 1:72nd scale (about 3'2" at 226') not counting her extremely long bowsprit-jibboom. Actually, the supplier could do other scales as well. Although I have yet to work in wood, I have a set of Glory of the Seas bulkheads and already intend to secure a set of Staghound too once they're ready. Even with shipping costs from Europe, they're very reasonably priced. True to his word, Vlad was nice enough to reassure me (and the wistful ghost of Cornelius McKay 😉 ) that his cad design was indeed identical to the McKay model.

While we were evaluating correct rake to the masts of Staghound I found two sources which contradict the Boston Daily Atlas account of an extreme 1 & 1/2" to 1'. Another document "US Nautical Magazine, Volume II, 1855" stated her rake was a more moderate 1 & 1/4" to 1'. http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Shipbuilding/USNM-2(1855)_p401.html That sounded more reasonable. Then I took another look at this painting sent to me by The Bostonian Society, which owns this remarkable piece. The curator of their museum confirmed that this is indeed a work of a Chinese artist. That makes it what's known as a Chinese Export Artwork. Why that's significant is these clever artists had prepainted canvasses with entirely finished seascapes readily prepared. They would then present various options to ship's captains who would select their favorite background. Then their vessel would be painted in the foreground as the ship lay in the harbor. To my knowledge, this is the very first authentic, contemporay work of art of McKay's extreme clipper Staghound! The vessel Cornelius referred to as his father's "Pioneer craft of the California Clipper Fleet." For our purposes, we can clearly see her masts rake but at a more moderate 1 & 1/4" to 1'. We now have two authentic sources to confirm that rake and refute the more extreme one described mistakenly by Duncan McLean. FYI: I'm requesting the costs to get a clean copy of this piece. When I get those prices, I will share them with the group here.

@Rick310 at the risk of sounding like a broken record, it makes me wonder how someone who served on a ship could completely miss how thoroughly inaccurate and unfinished her prow was...

@Rick310 you learn something new every day. I had no idea that the side ventilators were to aerate the hull; that they had nothing to do with fresh air circulation for living spaces. Maybe that's why Emerson's patent ventilators were also installed? I'm still digging to find out what systems were employed to prevent water infiltration.

@Rick310 I had no idea that Captain Arthur Clark was involved in the creation of the magnificent Boucher Flying Cloud model at rhe Boston Museum of Fine Art. The display of her sails looks like they made the Currier & Ives print come to life. This beautiful model and her twin at Addison's Gallery, Phillip's Academy, Andovrt, MA are my favorite. The top image is from Boston Museum of Fine Arts while the bottom is at Addison's Gallery. Too bad Captain Clark missed the unique McKay navel hood, cutwater bow. It still mystifies me how these important nautical devices have been lost for nearly two centuries! I imagine how more lovely she'd look with her prow restored properly. As for apparent lack of side ventilators, they're definitely described in the Boston Daily Atlas article. She's also noted to have Emerson's patented ventilators too. I wonder if they were at least included?

Bill, no problem. By the way, I agree with you. Constructing these amazing clipper ships in such record time is an amazing accomplishment. Then again, I've read that in World War II, shipyards launched entire "Liberty Ships" in a week's time!

Bill, I'm pretty sure Donald McKay's shipyard was equipped with some power equipment. Since this was decades before an established 8 hour day or even weekends, the shipyard was most likely running something like 12-14 hours a day, 6 days a week. Basically sun-up to sun-down. It's well known too that Mr. McKay cared very much for his workers and treated them like family. Consider this too: Stag Hound launched December 21st, 1850 while an even larger clipper ship Flying Cloud launched April 25th, 1851. That's roughly 140 days later....

@Luis Felipe Thanks for these detailed bulwark plans. Steve Bradner does nice clean work. One error Rob and Vlad learned the hard way is the Glory of the Seas forecastle height. While the Boston Daily Atlas states that the forecastle deck was mounted at the main rail height, that was not the case. Michael Mjelde sent us a document, an excerpt of a letter regarding a windlass upgrade. To ensure fit, precise internal height of the forecastle deck was given: 5 feet, 9 inches. With decks being 3 & 1/2 inches, that puts the forecastle deck at 6 feet 1/2 inch. To accomplish this, the forecastle deck must be mounted atop the monkey rail. So the only rail surrounding the forecastle is the 18 inch splash rail. Another photo shows about a foot high shelf running alongside the rail which terminates in an elegant curving point a few feet before the bow point of the forecastle. What we're now trying to determine is what apparatus was employed to prevent water ingressing into the ship's apartments, if waves break over the side? My hunch is somehow any water ingested would somehow be redirected to the ship's scuppers. I have yet to find anything to confirm that. This I know for sure. There's no way a vessel would be designed that would ignore the risk of open pipes funneling seawater below!

Bill, not only was she built in less than 90 days, the contract actually stipulated that she had to be built in 90 days.

I found the earlier reference. Scott Bradner has a long dissertation on different types of ventilators employed on mid 1800s clipper ships. He refers to a Dec 1994 Nautical Research Journal article which is his source for a lot of his topic. Robert C and Grisel M Leavitt note that gooseneck ventilators illustrated by Lankford on his extreme clipper Flying Fish plans were patented by Ebenezer Knight in 1847. However, they state that there was only evidence of two clipper ships of the 1800s which employed that design. Most likely McKay's ships did not. Instead, they say McKay ships would have a simple 2" to 2 & 1/2" diameter open top straight brass tubes installed between stanchions and these would have terminated just below the main rail. About 5' high. Considering there were a minimum of one ventilator between each stanchion 30" apart on Flying Cloud, it's about 188 open sources for water to get in. That's simply inconcievable, so there had to be ways to seal water out. Here's a link to this fascinating article: https://www.sobco.com/ship_model/fc/details/ventilators.htm