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Waldemar

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  1. This is one of the finest models I have seen. The bow gun is lovely made too, but it is a classical long gun, and not a 48-pdr modern carronade you are probably striving for. Perhaps the best course of action would be to scale the below British carronade drawing so that its bore diameter would be 180 mm (this calibre would be a 48-pounder for Hastings). This is not a British system calibre, but Russians were known to order large quantities of carronades from Scottish factories, perfectly conforming in its shape and proportions to the British pattern. Later made Russian specimens were also perfect copies of British specimens. Some of them could be re-sold or given away to anyone, and also lost to the Ottomans. Good luck!
  2. ... this is much better, surer method than calculations based on the crazy specific densities of substances like iron or stone used in the shot manufacture.
  3. As evoked by Bruce, a simple formula can be used to calculate any bore (or roundshot) diameter, just knowing only one from a given calibre system. There were naturally some small individual variations for different reasons, but it usually works within production tolerances, at least for identification purposes. Diameter1³ Poundage1 ------------------------ = ----------------------- Diameter2³ Poundage2 For example, if you know that the bore diameter of a French 48 pounder is 19.4 cm, and you are looking for a diameter of a (theoretical) French 68 pounder gun, then: 19.4³ 48 (pdr) -------------- = -------------- x³ 68 (pdr) x³ = (19.4³ * 68) / 48 = 10343,63 =====> x = 21.8 cm (bore diameter of a theoretical French 68-pounder) For better results, avoid – if possible – mixing calibres of different systems used in specific countries.
  4. Is it acceptable in this fine project to arm the ship („Terpsichore“) operating already in 1821 with the ordnance specifically designed in 1825 (and delivered in 1826) for „Karteria“? You decide, but if the current preferences are for a modern carronade (or carronade like gun) of exactly 48 pound caliber, you are perhaps left only with Russian or Ottoman ordnance, or maybe a British specimen aimed at the merchant market too. The inventory and weight marks cut on the baserings of bronze cannons in the two pictures above are not much helpful here.
  5. Well, factories can be taken over (captured) too, like cities or fortresses. Never mind... The text reads (ou, already translated by Bruce): "This gun is formed like a carronade except that it is longer and has trunnions resembling those of a long gun". One may also add here: just like in carronades intended for merchant service (in contrast to naval/military service), which had normally trunnions as well. This quasi-carronade concept/project by Hastings could not be modelled after Paixhans system, as this system was not yet fully invented, or at least accepted by the French Navy. See Gerard's posts. It seems, that it is just an invention by Hastings. Maybe actually cast, maybe not. Don't be afraid of the apparently obsolete stone (chambered) guns, as they could be deadly efficient even against large warships. You perhaps know a famous accident, from just a few years before, when a large stone roundshot from an Ottoman gun smashed at the large British ship-of-the-line, making terrible damage and killing some of the crew on the spot. Only range was lacking, just as in carronades.
  6. Just to be on the safe side: no armament factory (gunfoundry) in Greece then? Taking all this into account, and especially the available sources of artillery armament, I would turn into the Ottoman or Venetian ordnance. If Ottoman, it could be half-kantar gun, which may be regarded as an equivalent of the Western carronade of roughly the standard 48-pdr size. This half-kantar gun, in its shape, was not far from the obsolete, medieval stone guns (cannon-periers). And all of these chambered guns were still widely used on board Ottoman ships even in 19th century. Always cast in bronze. For example, in the Russo-Turkish war of 1787-1792, Ottoman 86-gun battleships had four half-kantar guns. Ottomans also cast copies of Venetian and Russian longer unicorns (cannon-howitzers), but these should be easily distinguished by a professional like Hastings from a carronade-like guns with shorter barrels. If not Ottoman, you can take into account Venetian ordnance, with hundreds, if not thousands of specimens lying all around. Many of them, in function and capabilities, were almost perfect equivalent of modern guns. Again, first take a look at what was used locally then...
  7. Well, if you insist on something more modern, quite detailed data is available for the Russian carronades and the so-called unicorns, both naval service, and both also in 48-pdr size, and both in regular service in 18th and 19th centuries. As an aside, Russian unicorns are in practice nothing more than copies of Venetian guns of the New Invention from 1684. You just need to establish such possibility in your sources. And keep in mind that even "Karteria", built abroad few years later than the "Terpsichore", had to wait several months for her modern, state-of-the-art armament. Meanwhile, she got temporary, more or less random guns taken from a fortress.
  8. May I ask you, what is the current state of this research except data you have already put in this thread? Thank you in advance.
  9. There is also another possibility, ie. that of Venetian guns of the so-called "New Invention" from around 1684, being in essence cannon-howitzers, just like the later French Paixhans guns (canon-obusiers). Two models were produced in modest quantities, with calibres of 265 mm and 212 mm (respectively of 200 and 120 „small“ Venetian pounds). The calibre of the smaller version is quite close to the supposed, later „48-pdr carronade“. Two prototypes were cast from iron in England (six calibres long, ~1670 kg). „Normal“ production specimens were cast in bronze at the Venice Arsenal (3500 „large“ Venetian pounds = ~1560 kg). More on these guns in G. Candiani, The race to big calibres during the first war of Morea and Sigismondo Alberghetti’s guns of new inwention, [in:] Ships and Guns. The Sea Ordnance in Venice and Europe between the 15th and 17th Centuries, 2011. Smaller, 120-pdr (212 mm) Gun of the New Invention (cannon-howitzer), with its shell beneath the muzzle:
  10. More details on a matching Venetian „48-pdr carronade“ (from the book by C. Beltrame and M. Morin, I Cannoni di Venezia. Artiglierie della Serenissima in Turchia, Grecia e Dalmazia, 2013). Tipologia: cannone petriero da 90 in bronzo Località di conservazione: Askeri muze ve Kultur Sitesi Komutani Istanbul N° di inventario: 261 Fonditore: Tommaso di Conti Anno di fusione: ante quem 1540 Proprietà: statale Calibro: 19.2 cm Peso pezzo marcato: 1360 (il peso in libbre grosse alla veneziana) = ~610 kg Dimensioni: 190 cm (lungh. tot.), 174 cm (lungh. conv.), 30.7 cm (diam. al foc.), 31.8 cm (diam. agli orecch.), 26 cm (diam. alla gioia), 32 cm (diam. della gioia). Descrizione: pezzo di tipo “camerato”, ossia con canna il cui diametro in corrispondenza della culatta è ridotto. L’arma è dotata di rinforzo centrale mentre la volata, e parte del posteriore, sono più strette. La gioia di bocca presenta una gola molto pronunciata. Sulla parte alta della volata una doppia cordonatura crea una fascia su cui è presente la X del Consiglio dei Dieci. Al di sotto è presente un leone accosciato verso destra soprastante le iniziali T e C tra triangolini, indicanti il fonditore. Al centro dell’anello di culatta è inciso il numero 1360 indicante il peso in libbre grosse alla veneziana. Sul pomo sono incise due linee parallele. Sample stone gun (cannon-perier) intersections:
  11. … and it would be rather a bronze gun, relatively lightweight, up to, say, 700–800 kg.
  12. Thanasis: An obsolete large Venetian stone gun (petriera, cannon-perier) would lovely match the available data on your gun. Such guns could be quite long, sometimes almost like true-bored cannons. Large bore in the range of 18–19 cm diameter would roughly match the closest standard 48-pdr shot. And perhaps best of all, it was a chambered gun, just like the carronade, and essentially it could be used as carronade, hence classed as such by the Philhellenes.
  13. Licentia poetica? My straightforward interpretation (hopefully in line with the intention of both author and translator) is: 48 pounder carronade = carronade of the calibre of 48 = carronade of the calibre of 7 inches Just different descriptions of a new proposed type (class) of ordnance with the French standard 48 pound (or 7 inches) calibre. Gerard, am I right or otherwise?
  14. … logistic issues may be of help too. What was the source of guns for the Greek navy in general (or this cannon in particular)? Russia, Turkey, France, GB, Greece itself, and so on… Without all of this, we can only create pure deus ex machina. Sorry.
  15. Try to establish if this bower shot through the gunport or over the bulwark (required gun barrel length depended on this, ie. longer barrel for a position with a gunport; horizontal angles!). Try to establish also the way in which calibre of chambered guns (like howitzers, carronades, mortars) were measured and referred to in Greece then (for example, according to iron roundshot or stone rounshot for a specific calibre). Try also to establish the actual weight of a pound used in Greek artillery then. You will have more data then to hopefully sort it out…
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