Thinking things trough, the gunport lids

[dafi]

When I was working on the gunport lids of the lower deck of my Vic a question arose:

 

How to close the little scuttle?

 

 

They can be pushed open but how to close them? I arranged them in a way, that a wave from the front would smash them closed, but what to do on a calm sea?

 

I believe there should be a ringbolt for a rope, or a rope nailed onto it, otherwise there should be no way of closing it - apart of waiting for an angry sea ;-)

 

Also this should be the way of securing the scuttle lid for high seas.

 

Is there any informations about this detail available?

 

 

Cheers and thanks, Daniel

Edited May 3, 2015 by dafi

[druxey]

I suspect that there was a small ringbolt inside. You could reach through and grab it to close the scuttle. A small rod of wood could then be passed through the ring to keep the scuttle closed.

[wq3296]

Greetings Daniel,

 

Photographs of Victory in Longridge's book The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships shows tackles were used to open the port lids. These tackles were rigged to the bottom side of the deck structure above the respective guns. The photos show an eyebolt with ring in each lower corner of the lid - inboard side. Based on the way they were rigged, I expect the weight of the lids would cause them to self close when the tackles were released. The ring bolts were probably used to pull them in tight and lock them in place while under way, as Druxey suggests. 

 

wq3296

[dafi]

Thank you Druxey and wq.

 

wq,

I meant the small air scuttles on the lower Deck lids. The lid itself is clear that the lanyards were used and the inboard rings to secure the lid for seagoing.

 

 

Achilles gave me in the german forum a hint to the slider, used on some of the scuttle lids on the display in Portsmouth.For some reasons do not believe it to be the original solution ...

 

 

 

Druxey

My first reaction too was some kind of bolt with rope or a rope nailed into the lid. Seeing the way the scuttles are worked on Endeavour was a hint, but it would only work to close and keep them closed by lashing it somewhere. One can push them open, but how do they stay open?

 

Alex M brought into the game a hook, that secured into the scuttle link would allow to open, keep open, close and seal the small lid. I know this system from my grandmas windows in her very old house.

 

But still nothing than those hints ...

 

... any better contemporary sources known?

 

XXXDan

Edited May 3, 2015 by dafi

[druxey]

I've not come across any contemporary descriptions, I'm afraid. Perhaps someone else has?

[jbshan]

The best I've seen is  'Construction and Fitting', Peter Goodwin.  He shows a solid scuttle lid that is the same thickness as the port lid.  It is secured inboard with the sliding deadbolt in dafi's post #4, bottom picture.  This should not be surprising since Goodwin was Curator of Victory and the pic is of Victory.   Goodwin says this is the original style, that later scuttles had glass.  Perhaps the kit scuttle lids are intended to represent this later style.

[jbshan]

Just to make sure we go totally off topic, what is that white oval shape on top of the coin in the first pic?  I have seen something similar in a few other posts.

[dafi]

That is my Tic-Tac, man :-)

 

As many countries do not know the size of different coins of other ones - they vary largely in between the countries and values - the Tic-Tac is standardized so it gives a good scale for all countries.

 

:-)

 

Cheers, Daniel

[dafi]

This brings me back to my dilemma - all sources so far bring me back to Goodwin ...

 

... and my desperate search for contemporary sources.

 

Thank you, Daniel

[wq3296]

Greetings Daniel,

 

According to Longridge, the small ports were for ventilation. They were square and "have a special sort of hinge". He said that he did not cut out these ports on his model "but put on an imitation hinge." A photo of his model shows what appears to be an oblong shape at the center of the gun ports which must be this special hinge. A drawing in his book (outboard profile, Plan No.2) shows the hinges on the lower deck gun deck. From the way hinge is shaped, it would appear that it is hinged at the top. 

 

wq3296

[jbshan]

That is my Tic-Tac, man :-)

 

As many countries do not know the size of different coins of other ones - they vary largely in between the countries and values - the Tic-Tac is standardized so it gives a good scale for all countries.

 

:-)

 

Cheers, Daniel

Thanks, Daniel.  I have a dime the size of a manhole cover that can be confusing to some people.  I see what you're saying.

 

Interesting that Longridge shows top hinges and Goodwin working a little later shows forward hinges.  Presumably both had the same source, although perhaps Trincomalee or Unicorn entered in there somewhere, if not a source for authors, as a source for restorers.

[druxey]

I don't know whether this helps the discussion or not, but hinge knuckles on sweep port lids are on the forward side in contemporary models.

[dafi]

Makes sense, as the waves would slam it close and not open, which facilitates emergency closing. I already respected this for the etch parts on my Vic :-)

 

Cheers and thanks, Daniel

[Jaager]

the little scuttle

Function 1 - to allow the cannon to be swabbed with the lid closed - to avoid flying material coming in during loading - the shaft of the swab would keep it open enough.

Function 2 - for ventilation when too cold or wet to have main port open - a wooden wedge to shim it open?

To close it - pull it closed by hand using the ring? If removing the shim and gravity closing it is not enough.