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Jaager

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About Jaager

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    Journeyman
  • Birthday 09/11/1946

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    Norfolk VA
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    wooden sail pre-1860

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  1. I have not come across any mention of out gassing and Yellow Poplar before. That does not mean that it is not true. One other factor: clear finished Yellow Poplar can scream: please paint me. Did you by chance use PVA to assemble the box? It is essentially a strong concentration of acetic acid in the bottle. I failed an Organic Chemistry lab quiz, because I did a shortcut jump on a: Is it an ester or an ether? problem. There was no ppt, so I made the wrong choice. I forgot that acetic acid is a liquid and does not form a ppt. Anyway, the acid will slowly evaporate and I suspect that polyvinyl polymerization continues for a long time after the desired bond is formed. The reaction probably releases acetic acid, that could occur for years at a very low level.
  2. That is plane sawn and planed Black Cherry. When ripped into stock at model scale, the grain is not all that noticeable to my eye. It will darken significantly and the grain difference will be even less. The inclusions are a pain and reduce the yield of usable wood. Black Cherry is one of my primary woods. It is easy to work and has no bad habits. It is however a necessary make do substitute. Pear is harder, and has a more uniform nature. Rating Pear at 100, I give Black Cherry an 85. (I give Apple a 200, but I find it unobtainable.) Here is the States, the rarity and cost makes it way too expensive to use for framing. Cutting curved timbers involves significant waste and Pear is not practical. Tasmanian Myrtle Unless there is something about it that I am missing, I would say that you will be golden if you use it. It is about 1/3 harder than Black Cherry and that is a plus for me. It looks relatively uniform. You complained earlier about a pink tint. Do not sweat about that. Pink in any wood seems to be a passing stage. It will likely darken. (Recently, a member in China was going off on Pink Ivory, because the pink went away and that is its name.) How dark it will eventually get, you will discover in time. One option is to use a reddish dye. Being specific and technical, I mean a dye, and not a stain. A stain is a semi-transparent paint. It does not belong on quality wood. Dyes come in two types, as a solution in an alcohol - it does not raise the grain, but it does not penetrate very deeply. as a solution in water - first exposure raises the grain, but it penetrates more deeply. The grain swelling problem is solved by treated the finished wood with plain water ( with 5% or 10% PVA in it ) sand or scrape the swollen fibers after things dry and then use the dye. In your place, I would: Give the Black Cherry a pass. Work the Myrtle now to determine if it is everything it seems to be. If it passes the test, load up on it. Figure out how much you will need and at least quadruple that amount. Experience has taught me that wood like this will increase in price and become more difficult to obtain and decrease in quality. Your next mission: Find a domestic lumber that is blond, tight grain, closed pore, hard, with unobtrusive and low contrast grain. Blue Gum looks possible - but for this Grain/Texture: Grain is interlocked, with a uniform medium to coarse texture. Low natural luster. medium or coarse does not sound good.
  3. Roger, The grain look (as well as the course grain and open pores - which tends to overpower any detail and be distracting in a model,) is pretty much the same for all Oak species. You are right about Red Oak with one additional characteristic - the pore structure has open communication internally. Water or air can be blow thru it from one side to the other. If a barrel is made from Red Oak and it is filled with a liquid - water or alcohol, instead of nails - it will actually only be borrowing the liquid. On a cross sea voyage, the barrels could be partially or totally empty at the destination - if alcohol, at least. It would be interesting trying to keep a dry bilge in a ship planked with Red Oak. Must have been interesting to have been the ones who discovered that while at sea. About the Mamoli Beagle - everything that I seen regarding this kit suggests that economy was a primary consideration. Never mind that the hull appears to be the same as that of Bounty and/or Endeavor and is not that of a Cherokee class - 10 gun - "coffin" brig. It was manufactured in Italy? In North America, Walnut available is Black Walnut (Juglans nigra). It is far and away superior to any other species of Walnut. It is also way too expensive for an economy kit. The native European Walnut is (I think) English Walnut. It produces the eatable nuts, so is not primarily a lumber source and is also too expensive for an economy kit. Any Walnut in the kit is likely to be African Walnut. This is not a Juglans species at all. It is closer to being a Mahogany. The name Walnut for it is a marketing ploy and not Botany. I am guessing it tends to be brittle and prone to splitting when bent. Black Walnut will make a hull planked with it a dark color, but it is not likely to come near matching existing African Walnut planking. Although most of Black Walnut's properties are ones we seek, one unfortunate property is its open pores. Commercial hardwood lumber in eastern North America - that is suitable for our purposes, domestic and commonly available: Hard Maple Beech Birch Black Cherry Yellow Poplar Ripping a 0.5mm slice using a 10" tablesaw = if the fence is perfect, the board is dead flat, and the blade is running true and does not eat into the slice, a Freud 10" thin kerf ripping blade has a 0.094" kerf - that is 2.4mm, so for every pass, 80% of the wood goes to saw dust.
  4. Blick carries a fairly a extensive list of Midwest Basswood its site. It is all Imperial - not metric - so the closest to what you seek is 3/32 x 1/4 and 1/32 x 3/16 It is a large site : https://www.dickblick.com/products/midwest-products-genuine-basswood-strips/ Stay far, far away from any Balsa products. unless you mean to add a motor and fly your model. ( I think it was a Navy pilot trope - the designers would try to fly a brick if they put a large enough engine on it. ) ( I think the F4 was an inspiration for that thought.) Echoing from the long corridor to the scratch build wing = with a big bandsaw, a Byrnes thickness sander, and a Byrnes tablesaw, most any dimensions can be had. The species is limited to what you can purchase or harvest. But, geography, and rapacious past behavior does place annoying limits on available species.
  5. From The Wood Database Common Name(s): Basswood, American Basswood, Lime, Linden Scientific Name: Tilia americana Average Dried Weight: 26 lbs/ft3 (415 kg/m3) Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .32, .42 Janka Hardness: 410 lbf Common Name(s): European Lime, Common Lime, Common Linden Scientific Name: Tilia x europaea (hybrid of Tilia platyphyllos and T. cordata; syn. T. vulgaris) Average Dried Weight: 33 lbs/ft3 (535 kg/m3) Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .42, .53 Janka Hardness: 700 lbf Common Name(s): Poplar, Tulip Poplar, Yellow Poplar Scientific Name: Liriodendron tulipifera Average Dried Weight: 29 lbs/ft3 (455 kg/m3) Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .40, .46 Janka Hardness: 540 lbf Not to be confused with the totally awful Black Poplar Common Name(s): Black Poplar, Lombardy Poplar, Mappa burl Scientific Name: Populus nigra Average Dried Weight: 24 lbs/ft3 (385 kg/m3) Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .31, .39 Janka Hardness: 460 lbf or White Poplar Common Name(s): White Poplar, Silver Poplar Scientific Name: Populus alba Average Dried Weight: 28 lbs/ft3 (440 kg/m3) Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .36, .44 Janka Hardness: 410 lbf Except for its troublesome color variation - Yellow Poplar is excellent to work with - if you like relatively soft wood. Given that it is about twice as hard as Basswood and how well Yellow Poplar works, I can see the appeal of European Lime. And the confusion about its quality if seen as interchangeable with the borderline acceptable Basswood.
  6. From the product MDS: Product Identifier Product Name: Gorilla Wood GlueSynonyms: Polyvinyl Acetate Polymer product in water So it is just another yellow PVA product. I would not be surprised to learn that it was actually manufactured by Franklin or Elmer's and just packaged and branded by Gorilla. What you have is essentially identical to Titebond or Elmer's or any other yellow PVA that we do talk about. It should be excellent to use.
  7. About the holystoning, which was sanding with loose sand and a big flat rock at least some of the time. I see most of the crew as being barefoot most of the time. Splinters could be a disaster and not just painful, so the deck would need attention often enough to avoid that. My experience with actual sailing is slight. But one Summer, I took an auxiliary sail passenger boat over to (I think) Cape Lookout, NC. The sail was used for a while. July/August coastal North Carolina can get really hot. I discovered a few things: There is no shade on a single deck sailing vessel. Not only is there direct radiation from the Sun, there is reflected radiation from the water surface. When sailing, any breeze is reduced because the vessel is moving with it. Barefoot, open deck - hot, hot, hot - also the deck planks could loose water and shrink. I am imagining that during most of the day, there would be crewmen whose job was to haul in buckets of seawater and keep the deck wet. I think the options for the soles of shoes was hobnails (land only) and leather. Leather and a wet surface = broken tailbones. Sea water from around a ship that not only had sea creature poo, but a real concentration of crew poo floating along the side, could present some really interesting infections. Puncture wounds would be something to avoid.
  8. As a game of speculation - not the result of experimental testing: 1- acrylic paint will leave a smooth surface with few or no pores or irregularities. In the situation of wood-acrylic-PVA-wood, The strength of the bond of the acrylic with wood is one limiting factor. The bond of the PVA with acrylic will probably have very little of a physical component. I see the chains as a flat layer across the face of the paint. The bond will be a weak electrostatic one instead of the usual mechanical one. The large size of the chains probably makes for a wavy, knotty, interface on a microscopic level. The electrostatic bond is likely significantly weaker than that formed by the type of glue that uses electrostatic attraction for a bonding mechanism. The fix is to seriously abrade or scrape the acrylic at the bond interface. 2- paper - is porous. This situation of wood-PVA-paper-PVA-wood, The weakest point is paper-paper. Depending on the type of paper used, the PVA may penetrate enough that there is a PVA-PVA bond inside the paper. I would not risk my life on the strength of that bond, but if may be close (or at least closer) to a normal PVA bond. The hint: I see this as two techniques for simulating caulking in a laid deck. Gloves off! The bond between planks on a model deck does not need to be strong. The needed strength is at the deck to beam ( and if your OCD is off the scale - the carlings, ledges, edges of hanging knees and face of lodging knees). My perspective is scratch and POF, so for me plywood is for tool bases and housing. Using paint to simulate the caulking - a really bad idea. Most models - to my eye - place way too much emphasis on the caulking seams. Even exactly replicating the scale width is probably too much because of scale effect. The modern "repairs" done on the decks of saved vessels such as USS Constitution and HMS Trincomalee look like cartoons of what was done 200 years ago. Perhaps if the deck was originally laid in the tropics in the Summer and it was sailed to the North polar region in Winter and allows to dry and shrink, the seams might be that wide. As it is, I suspect it is a combination of lesser carpentry skills and giving the customer what he expects to see. Paper is a time tested method suggested in at least one of the original core texts for our hobby. Depending on scale, the paper might be over doing it. Using black paper is the wrong color for pre-1860. Consider adding Black Walnut dye crystals to some PVA instead. It is closer to Pine tar in color. The bulk can be used to dye rigging - intense for standing and dilute for running rigging.
  9. If the deck is Basswood, a stain rather than a dye would be suitable. But, placing aside the inappropriate original red species on a working vessel - (perhaps it is supposed to be a showboat luxury yacht. for which it would be OK) - as a model - the red should be a hint in its intensity - that is - dilute the stain - a lot - before applying it. Make it sort of red, rather than bop your nose red.
  10. The core material is the same. The yellow PVA has additives that increase resistance to water. The additives have an amber tint. The pattern for the range of PVA products includes: bookbinders PVA - white - dries clear - pH 7 - neutral Elmer's Glue All - white - pH 5 Weldbond - white - water resistant - pH 4.5-5 Titebond - lt. yellow - not water resistant - pH 4 Titebond II - yellow - water resistant - pH 3 Titebond III - lt, brown - waterproof - pH 2.5 - not for continuous immersion - Resorcinol or newer tech From a practical point on the scale, for our purposes - except for bookbinders PVA (for rigging and paper) - the wood will probably fail before the bonds formed using any of them do. Any differences are a tempest in a teapot.
  11. Bob, To poke at this a bit. !967 was a long time ago, but seeing if I can remember= By denatured, it would be ethanol. Two carbons and an -OH. Carbon holds its H's more tightly than oxygen, so the H bonded to the carbons can be ignored. There is possible partial ionization of the H from the oxygen - which has an effect of polarity - and affinity for the polyvinyl acetate matrix. and its ability the fit between the chains. Propanol is three carbons in a chain with an -OH on an end one. I am guessing that whatever the effect of a two carbon chain on H polarity would be greater from a 3 carbon chain. 2-propanol (isopropyl alcohol) is also 3 carbons, but the -OH is on the middle carbon. The outside two carbons might - flap like wings - and have the opposite effect on the H polarity because the the electron clouds are working against each other rather than being a reinforcing chain. The shape is more like a ball? It must be able to get inside the space between the chains and straighten them out, or weaken the attraction between the chains.
  12. Yes. For the reasons stated in my editorial, I think shellac the better choice - but half strength for the first coat. But, since I bend towards a belt and suspenders when it is important. I would first paint the surface with water and sand again after it dries and then use the shellac. Use a plastic pot scrubber pad on the dried shellac and tack rag before the paint.
  13. Aliphatic - I will take to mean yellow PVA - PVA with additives to add resistance to temporary exposure to water. e.g. Titebond II The bond is formed thru a chemical reaction. When in the water solvent and in a bottle with minimal air - it stays short chains. Spread it in a thin layer on a porous surface and expose to to oxygen = the short chains bond to each other and form much longer chains. These chains invade the porous surface and twist around each other. They do not chemically react with cellulose or lignin ( as far as I know ). The hold is a physical one. The chains completely fill the holes and grooves in the wood. I have not read of Tris type components, so I do not know if 3 arm components are a part of this. I suspect that it is single, long chains that are formed. The result is a plastic that holds together and holds to the wood surface with more strength than lignin holds wood fiber together. Pry the bond apart and the wood tears from itself before the plastic chains will pull apart from the wood. A thick piece of just the polymerized PVA is clear, amber, flexible, and can be torn apart. This encompasses some factors as far as use with wood: A) A rougher bare wood surface yields a stronger bond. ~ 100/150 grit is probably optimal - although I am wed to 220 grit, that is about as fine as should be sanded. B ) The closer the two bonding surfaces, the stronger is the bond between them. Increased clamping force produces a stronger bond. At a microscopic level, the irregularity of the wood surface makes it impossible to force out enough PVA to weaken the bond. It is definitely possible, indeed, is a limiting factor, to apply enough force to crush, to damage the outer face of the wood being clamped. I do not recall ever seeing the actual chemical reaction that forms polyvinyl acetate written out. Polymer chemistry was not much of a part of my Organic Chemistry class. addition: thinking about the reaction - there is acetic acid in the mixture. Although it is an organic acid, thus has a lower maximum possible hydrogen ion concentration (higher pH max) the effect of drying from the thin layer must increase the acidity. Perhaps it is the combination of oxygen and a more acid environment that accelerates the linking reaction.
  14. Wood fibers swelling upon the first exposure to water is a factor when using penetrating aqueous (water based) aniline dye also. The fix is to treat the wood to a prior exposure to water alone, let the surface dry, then sand or scrape the swollen fibers smooth. It works even better when the water treatment is a ~10% solution of PVA (1 part glue, 9 parts water). This locks the wood fibers. 1000 grit may be over kill - depending on your scale - and era. If 1:96 or larger and pre - 1860 - 220 grit - 320 grit may be fine enough. Grit finer than 320 is aimed at use on metals and plastic - and perhaps to buff a final clear coat. Since your wood is a species of Walnut and there is a problem with open pores, a sanding sealer may be appropriate. The problem with Sand & Seal type products here in North America is that they are aimed at use on full size furniture made with open pore species like Oak, Ash, Hickory, Walnut. It is thick and it fills the often large pores. This produces a smooth surface for clear finishes that follow it. It adds a noticeable layer to the surface. This is not a desired factor at model scales. The solution is to use closed pore, tight grained species of wood. These do not need to be sealed. Primers such as 50% cut shellac do an excellent job without adding a significant thickness on the surface
  15. I go for option #4. But rotate the pattern ~45 degrees. Get angled cross grain in both arms.

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