Staghound 1850 by rwiederrich - 1/96 - Extreme Clipper

[Rick310]

Nice job on the cathead Rob!!

Rick

[BANYAN]

Nice job on that cathead, especially at that scale Rob.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

9 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

FYI: do yourself a favor, if you don't already have Richard McKay's book in your library, get the earlier version.

Thanks Rich, I don't have a copy but will definitely look for a copy.  I hope that all others interested in finding a copy don't drive the price up   I will be very interested to learn how close your collaborated plans/sketches are to his original plans.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited Thursday at 12:05 AM by BANYAN

[rwiederrich]

5 hours ago, Rick310 said:

Nice job on the cathead Rob!!

Rick

Thank Rick.   It needed to look warn as naturally expected.  
 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Nice job on that cathead, especially at that scale Rob.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Thanks Pat. I really wanted them to be fully functionally correct.  Each aspect of the model is a small project in of itself.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

5 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Thanks Pat. I really wanted them to be fully functionally correct.  Each aspect of the model is a small project in of itself.  
 

Rob

Unlike what I call mantlepiece models which may look nice but don't make sense, Rob's replicas authentically represent the workings of a real ship. 

[ClipperFan]

10 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Thanks Rich, I don't have a copy but will definitely look for a copy.  I hope that all others interested in finding a copy don't drive the price up   I will be very interested to learn how close your collaborated plans/sketches are to his original plans.

 

cheers

 

Pat

@BANYAN Abes Books has nice original 1928, 2nd issue copies listing for $20.00 + postage. 1969 and 1988 are monotone reprints, and usually list for a similar price. Check details to make sure you get an original issue. This lovely painting is clipper Lightning by Anton Otto Fischer. There are 10 full color works and dozens of monotone illustrations.

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Unlike what I call mantlepiece models which may look nice but don't make sense, Rob's replicas authentically represent the workings of a real ship. 

Thanks Rich.  Yes it's true.....most onlookers are truly unaware of the actual functionality of many aspects and components of a large sea going clipper ship. Or how many builders of these wonderful ships, actually are interested, or have the desire to fully compliment their models with accurate and complete components?  EDT comes to mind, of one who is an extreme accuracy modeler.  But he also built his model in a scale able to accommodate such precise detailing.  Us modelers down here in the smaller scales, have to modify, simulate or just completely illuminate some details....because the fabrication to do so...is just too microscopic for even the most discriminating critic.

If a magnifying glass is required to properly inspect your models details.....then, you've become a magician.

 

Rob (Just doing the best that I can)

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  I have Donald McKay's book - and in the back is a table with McKay ships of all types built.  His clippers of the 1850s (considered the 'Golden Age' of the clipper) with end-of life data had an average service of about 11 years (a group of 19 ships): with 7 burned by fire - crew presumably rescued 37%;  2 wrecked with crew or partial crew rescued 10%;  5 aground or abandoned - crew OK 26.5%;  and 5 Lost with all hands 26.5% !!

  So if a man served for over 10 years on a clipper then, he'd have a 26% chance of being lost at sea, a 10% chance of surviving a wreck, and nearly a 2/3rds chance of seeing a ship aground, abandoned or burned by fire (but living to tell the tale).  This was a risky life to be sure !

[ClipperFan]

5 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  I have Donald McKay's book - and in the back is a table with McKay ships of all types built.  His clippers of the 1850s (considered the 'Golden Age' of the clipper) with end-of life data had an average service of about 11 years (a group of 19 ships): with 7 burned by fire - crew presumably rescued 37%;  2 wrecked with crew or partial crew rescued 10%;  5 aground or abandoned - crew OK 26.5%;  and 5 Lost with all hands 26.5% !!

  So if a man served for over 10 years on a clipper then, he'd have a 26% chance of being lost at sea, a 10% chance of surviving a wreck, and nearly a 2/3rds chance of seeing a ship aground, abandoned or burned by fire (but living to tell the tale).  This was a risky life to be sure !

@Snug Harbor Johnny that's some amazing statistics for sure. Thanks for doing those calculations.

[ClipperFan]

April 1855, Monthly Nautical Magazine Quarterly Review Stag-Hound article. This article, written 5 years after her launch confirms Hall's notes regarding the 1 & 1/4" per foot rake of her masts. It still has the incorrect 4 & 1/2" per foot bowsprit steeve. Fortunately, Cornelius McKay's letter and drawing shows a less dramatic 4.2" steeve per foot. Valuable documents such as these aid in confirming accuracy.

[rwiederrich]

29 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

@Snug Harbor Johnny that's some amazing statistics for sure. Thanks for doing those calculations.

I agree…… great job Johnny. 
 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Worked on the anchor for the cathead. I decided against the wood stock, based upon Buttersworth’s painting, plus the fact McKay had an open checkbook to buy the best and most up to date hardware for Staghound.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

16 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Worked on the anchor for the cathead. I decided against the wood stock, based upon Buttersworth’s painting, plus the fact McKay had an open checkbook to buy the best and most up to date hardware for Staghound.  
 

Rob

Rob, your powers of observation still impresses me. I checked and both of Buttersworth’s pieces feature the more modern all iron anchors. 

[rwiederrich]

48 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, your powers of observation still impresses me. I checked and both of Buttersworth’s pieces feature the more modern all iron anchors. 

Really, apart from those Buttersworth paintings, all we have to go on is what was typical of clippers of the time. McLean clearly describes her deck features in general, but the finer details are left up to the modelers creativity. And, as you put it, up to their, *powers of observation*.  Knowing, from the gate,.......that McKay was given the most extreme levity of design and fashion.  We can conclude the most discrete furnishings were employed.

I still have to determine, where the iron (vented) bitts are to be placed.  2 On the forecastle and 2 aft on the poop deck? 

 

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Really, apart from those Buttersworth paintings, all we have to go on is what was typical of clippers of the time. McLean clearly describes her deck features in general, but the finer details are left up to the modelers creativity. And, as you put it, up to their, *powers of observation*.  Knowing, from the gate,.......that McKay was given the most extreme levity of design and fashion.  We can conclude the most discrete furnishings were employed.

I still have to determine, where the iron (vented) bitts are to be placed.  2 On the forecastle and 2 aft on the poop deck? 

 

 

Rob

Rob, here's Duncan McLean's description of the ventilated bits. He describes them as all being made of choice white oak. My educated guess would be that some form of iron might have been pounded into wooden bitts to provide ventilation. Foretopsail sheet bitts are also ventilated. This reminds me of the composite mizzen mast which was hollow inside to provide ventilation and prevent rot. I'm going to see if I can find some patented examples of ventilated bitts from 1850.

[ClipperFan]

18 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Really, apart from those Buttersworth paintings, all we have to go on is what was typical of clippers of the time. McLean clearly describes her deck features in general, but the finer details are left up to the modelers creativity. And, as you put it, up to their, *powers of observation*.  Knowing, from the gate,.......that McKay was given the most extreme levity of design and fashion.  We can conclude the most discrete furnishings were employed.

I still have to determine, where the iron (vented) bitts are to be placed.  2 On the forecastle and 2 aft on the poop deck? 

 

 

Rob

Rob, here's Duncan McLean's description of the ventilated bits. He describes them as all being made of choice white oak. My educated guess would be that some form of iron might have been pounded into wooden bitts to provide ventilation. Foretopsail sheet bitts are also ventilated. This reminds me of the composite mizzen mast which was hollow inside to provide ventilation and prevent rot. I'm going to see if I can find some patented examples of ventilated bitts from 1850.

It looks like this is another case of Duncan McLean c combining descriptions for brevity. You may already know this but I had to learn it for myself. Ventilators were not inside bitts, they were nearby them. I found 2 patents. Emerson's which was specifically described as being on Flying Cloud and since it was patented in 1848 it's safe to accept they were installed on Stag Hound too. The later Ventilator appears to be bulkhead mounted. The Warren Robinson patented description also includes detailed float valves to prevent water ingestion and draining from wave action, which also confirms these were the ones installed along planksheers.

 

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 02:15 PM by ClipperFan
added information

[rwiederrich]

20 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, here's Duncan McLean's description of the ventilated bits. He describes them as all being made of choice white oak. My educated guess would be that some form of iron might have been pounded into wooden bitts to provide ventilation. Foretopsail sheet bitts are also ventilated. This reminds me of the composite mizzen mast which was hollow inside to provide ventilation and prevent rot. I'm going to see if I can find some patented examples of ventilated bitts from 1850.

Rich , it says the foretopsail sheet bitts are all white oak.  NOT the ventilated bitts.  These are all metal bitts with unscrewable centers with caps. NOT the large wooden bitts, found at the foot of the masts, and by the bulwarks for mooring.  Two different kinds of bitts.  

Edited Saturday at 08:42 PM by rwiederrich

[sheepsail]

Accidently clicked on this thread.  All I can say is AMAZING.

 

Also interesting to see Buttersworth mentioned outside art fraud books.  One of the most forged 20th century artists.  I would not trust any Buttersworth to be accurate.  Probably as real as a Rolex watch. 

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Rich , it says the foretopsail sheet bitts are all white oak.  NOT the ventilated bitts.  These are all metal bitts with unscrewable centers with caps. NOT the large wooden bitts, found at the foot of the masts, and by the bulwarks for mooring.  Two different kinds of bitts.  

Rob, researching ventilators going back to 1847, I found no ventilated bitts. Emerson describes his pair of ventilators as one which brings fresh air down into the hold or lower decks with a corresponding one that extracts fouled air out. He recommends one be placed at the fore of the ship and the other at the aft of the ship. For larger ships, even a second pair could be used. In this case, the order would be reversed. One injector and one extractor near each other. Stag Hound having been the largest merchant ship in the world at her launch, it makes sense that she would have had additional Emerson's ventilators. Before going with metal bitts, I encourage you to double check with Mike. Whenever I tried to find any type of wooden or metallic ventilated bitts it went to a dead end. This is why I suspect Duncan McLean inadvertently mixed in wooden bitts with cylindrical metallic ventilators installed nearby. Here's Emerson's 1847 patented ventilators.

[rwiederrich]

Rich , I’m suggesting this type of ventilated bitt.

 

Rob

 

 

[rwiederrich]

6 hours ago, sheepsail said:

Accidently clicked on this thread.  All I can say is AMAZING.

 

Also interesting to see Buttersworth mentioned outside art fraud books.  One of the most forged 20th century artists.  I would not trust any Buttersworth to be accurate.  Probably as real as a Rolex watch. 

Thank you.  I’m curious, where is your data that Buttersworth is one of the most forged artists? And that his paintings cannot be trusted?

 

Rob

[sheepsail]

55 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Buttersworth is one of the most forged artists? And that his paintings cannot be trusted?

The link to the Wikipedia on Ken Pereny's book, where he makes claims to the forgeries.  No one could prove any collusion which is why he titled the book Caveat Emptor.  He describes in the book in detail how he did the forgeries. And how he got off of the FBI charges once the statute of limitations expired.

 

Buttersworth is not exactly a household name, So I was surprised to see it here.   Forgers tend to target deep pocket collectors who have everything and want something no one else can have.  In the watch world there are names like Patek Philipe, Audumars Puget, and Jager-Le Coultre, who leave brands like Rolex and Omega in the dust.  You only hear of these names if you are in certain circles.

 

Note: this is all off the top of my head, so I may have the spelling of names wrong.  (I am actually carving bulwark slots on my model while leaving these forums open, which I check between each subsection.  - One subsection left to do.)

 

-julie

 

[ClipperFan]

6 hours ago, sheepsail said:

The link to the Wikipedia on Ken Pereny's book, where he makes claims to the forgeries.  No one could prove any collusion which is why he titled the book Caveat Emptor.  He describes in the book in detail how he did the forgeries. And how he got off of the FBI charges once the statute of limitations expired.

 

Buttersworth is not exactly a household name, So I was surprised to see it here.   Forgers tend to target deep pocket collectors who have everything and want something no one else can have.  In the watch world there are names like Patek Philipe, Audumars Puget, and Jager-Le Coultre, who leave brands like Rolex and Omega in the dust.  You only hear of these names if you are in certain circles.

 

Note: this is all off the top of my head, so I may have the spelling of names wrong.  (I am actually carving bulwark slots on my model while leaving these forums open, which I check between each subsection.  - One subsection left to do.)

 

-julie

 

@sheepsail Julie,  

a decade ago the Mariner's Museum and Park, Newport News, VA had a popular exhibit titled "B is for Buttersworth, F is for Forgery" wherein they hid a forgery amidst authentic Buttersworth pieces. They had the exhibit to boost attendance and apparently it worked. As for the few works we discuss, I would be surprised to learn that any we refer to: Staghound, from South Street Seaport, NY, Flying Fish at Vallejo Gallery, Sovereign of the Seas & Great Republic at the Old State House, Boston and Flying Cloud  listed by Barron's Auctions could be forgeries. I am curious though, does the book you refer to have color examples of this forger's works? I can tell you that I recently called "fake" for a purported Montague Dawson work. Anybody familiar with his work could tell this piece wasn't his. 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:07 PM by ClipperFan
replaced pic

[sheepsail]

6 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

does the book you refer to have color examples of this forger's works?

Yes, most are black and white.  There is a cut with the Bonhams promotional poster and one of the auctioned fakes in color from 1997.  Pereyni also faked other maritime artist some what are shown in color.

 

You really should read the book.  It is a real eye opener.  There is also a big spoiler I do not want to mention here, what affects the current state of how things get done in our modern society. 

 

Ironically the fakes can sell for as much and are almost as collectable.

 

-julie

Edited yesterday at 06:58 PM by sheepsail

[ClipperFan]

15 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Rich , I’m suggesting this type of ventilated bitt.

 

Rob

 

 

Rob, your model, your build. I hate to be a royal "PITA" but try as I might, I cannot find any reference to such ventilated top bollards illustrated here. Everything I have read, including searching contemporary patents, refer only to seperate ventilators. Nothing embedded in bitts of any kind. 

[rwiederrich]

I worked on the port cathead a bit today. 
 

Rob