Venetian ships 1797-1799

[MarisStella.hr]

hello gentlemen ...

I would appreciate if any of you have any information about this ships ..finally, I am interested in drawings, but any information would help .... they were part of the Venetian fleet :

 

• Laharpe 74 (c. 1797) - Captured by France 1797, captured by Austria 1799
• Stengal 64 (c. 1797) - Captured by France 1797, captured by Austria 1799
• Beyrand 64 (c. 1797) - Captured by France 1797, captured by Austria 1799

Best regards to all...

[druxey]

Would Austrian archives possibly have information if these were captured ships?

[Cristiano]

Hello Maris Stella,

The three Venetian ships that you asked for have never sailed under the Venetian flag.

When Napoleon conquered the Venice Republic, the above ships were still in the shipyard, under construction.

When terminated, they received French names (La Carrere, Le Stengel, Le Beyrand) and started their duty under French flag.

In anycase the Stengel and Beyrand belonged to the "FAMA" class and were twin ships (hydentical).

La Carrere belonged to the "44 cannoni" class.

in the attached foto there is the drawing of the FAMA class.

Of the FAMA class exist many drawings.

I have their complete history, but I don't think they can really interest you.

The above FAMA frigates were armed with 64 cannons (26 of 18 lb, 26 of 12 lb, 12 of 6 lb).

If you plan to create a model of a Venetian frigate, I suggest to study the last of the FAMA class that sailed under the Venetian Flag, which was "GLORIA VENETA", which came out from the shipyard on 1794.

armed with 66 cannons (26 of 40 lb, 26 of 30 lb, 12 of 14 lb).

La Carrere was armed with 44 cannons (28 of 18 lb and 16 of 6).

 

The informations available in terms of drawings and history can be found in the following book:

 

http://www.ibs.it/code/9788890565144/ercole-guido-zzz99-chist-e/vascelli-e-fregate-della.html

 

Since you live in Croatia, shipping to Croatia will not be so expensive (they ship outside Italy, too.)

There surely you will find:

-sail plan of FAMA class,

-various drawings of FAMA class

-hull drawings "44 cannoni" class

-detailed hystory of the above ships.

a lot of drawings and informations of many other ships.

 

The following person sells technical drawings of venetian ships:

http://www.veniceboats.com/it-progetti-piani-navi-grosse.htm

 

Last but not least:

the book in the following link (Austrian), explain the detailed restoration of a FAMA class half hull model, with lenght of 5 metres, razed by the austrians and bringed to Austria when they conquered Venice.

The book is complete with detailed drawings.

http://www.veniceboats.com/das-erbe-der-serenissima.htm

 

If you need additional informations, let me know, I more than happy to help you if you want to re-create a small piece of Mediterranean History!!

 

 

[MarisStella.hr]

Thanks druxey... do you have any idea how to reach Austrian archives ??
 

Hello Cristiano ! ... I see that you know a lot about this topic ... Could you help me? First I should explain my intentions  to You in entirely:

 

- I enjoy reconstructuring historic ships of this our area,  I draw plans (ship plans) ... my original idea, related to this topic, is to reconstruct several ships to connect the part of the history of this area ... they should connect: Venetian republic, Dalmatia, Istria, French and Austro-Hungarian empire ... they should be built in Trieste (alternatively in Venice) , or somewhere in this area ... I need at least one ship of the line (with as many guns as possible) and at least one  frigate... and of course, I'd buy the necessary books and the like ... Do you have any knowledge of this?       Best regards...

 

 

Edited April 12, 2014 by MarisStella.hr

[Cristiano]

Hello,

As I can see, in the suggeted book "vascelli e fregate della Serenissima" you can find a lot of drawings for making a "Leon Trionfante" class ship of the line, which owned around 66 cannons and dated 1793 (including hull drawings).

The above one has front and rear original perspective drawings, too.

In addition many drawing (hull included) for various classes.

There is also the complete list of the ship manufactured by the Venezia Shipyard and the hystory of each ship.

There is another book, focused mainly on galleys, but it has the complete drawings of the "Aquila Valiera", which was an admiral ship of 70 cannons, dated 1698 (including hull drawings).

below the link:

http://www.ibs.it/code/9788890251108/ercole-guido-zzz99-chist-e/duri-i-banchi-le.html

 

in the above book you will find plenty of drawings of galleys and xebec.

So, before doing everything, it should be better for you to purchase the above mentioned books (the second one is more hard to find).

Are Italian written, but I can help you.

 

 

 

[MarisStella.hr]

Hello Cristiano, I feel that this will be an enormous help ... I just buy those two books in Italian, and I think it will not be a problem to buy even one in German ... I think it will take a few weeks to get them ... I'll let You know anyway ... thank you very much once again, we'll be in touch If You do not mind ...

[Cristiano]

Hello Maris Stella,

Feel free to ask if you have some troubles on translating the books or have some question that can answer!

 

there is this additional book eventually, which is related generically on the mediterranean galleys.

As the previous ones, is full of drawings.

It Is of the same editor:

http://www.ibs.it/code/9788890251146/ercole-guido/galee-mediterranee-5000.html

 

I didn't buy it because I think there is an overlap of informations with the other book of the galleys "Duri i banchi!".

The problem of the book "Duri i banchi!" is that now has limited availabily and can delay the expedition of the other one, too.

But if they have trouble on finding it, they will remove it from the order or they ask to you if you want that they send the other one even alone.

 

Well, if you want to have a complete range of small traditional mediterranean boat projects, there is also the following:

http://www.ibs.it/code/9788820348335/bellabarba-sergio-guerrieri-edoardo/vele-italiane-della-costa.html

I made a brief review there:

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/6156-vele-italiane-della-costa-occidentale/

 

It is hard to find valuable books related to the mediterranean ships history, so when I find some I always suggest them!

 

 

 

 

[MarisStella.hr]

Hello all...

Cristiano  ... I managed to get the Austrian book "Das Erbe der Serenissima" ... there are detailed views of various elements,  and the most important, all detailed drawings ... now I need to study all together ... I should get two other books in Italian from Italy , I managed to get one, but currently there is no another one available ... Now, I will  examine a few days and I'll be back in touch ... everything is full of information, drawings and pictures ... thank you very much for this information ... Let's stay in touch please ...

 

 

[Cristiano]

I suppose that the book not available is "duri i banchi!", which was focused on galleys.

 

There is still one very "precious" book that you should try to find:

"NAVI VENEZIANE - VENETIAN SHIPS" by Gilberto Penzo.

LINT editor.

It is a book rather hard to find but:

-it is the most complete collection of original ships plans of all the venetian war ships made by the Venetian Republic.

Are all original drawings (mostly construction plans), coming from various different sources and collections.

223 drawings of ships of various size, from xebec, galleys, to polacre to ship of the line.

I bought it through Amazon, since IBS failed to find it from the editor.

below the link:

http://www.amazon.it/Navi-veneziane-Venetian-ships-Gilberto-Penzo/dp/888190103X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1402080103&sr=8-2&keywords=navi+veneziane

 

Not all the drawings are provided with dates or explanations written on it, so an historical background is needed in order to evaluate correctly some plan.

below the link in the author website:

http://www.veniceboats.com/it-pubblicazioni-catalogo-libri-navi-ven.htm

 

technically you can buy it from the author too, but it is better to send an email to him asking for availability.

 

When the Venice Republic collapsed against Napoleon, the largest part of the drawings were dispersed, razed, destroyed, sold.

So this book represent the only way to have the plans all together.

 

[Bob Legge]

This is Gilberto Penzo' home page,

 

http://www.veniceboats.com/eng-home.htm

 

His book  "NAVI VENEZIANE - VENETIAN SHIPS" and others are here:

 

http://www.veniceboats.com/eng-publications-books.htm

 

He has a workshop in Venice. My son obtained my copy there, it was opposite the hotel where he was staying.

 

Bob.

[MarisStella.hr]

Thanks Bob.. this is help a lot... Now I get informations, it is the beginning of the research ...

Cristiano, is LAHARPE the largest Venetian ship that ended up in the hands of the Austro-Hungarian Empire? Which is the largest Venetian ship that ended up in the hands of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?   ... (Now I do a calculation what is better, to do her in scale 1:48 or 1:59 ) ... I would like to process the FAMA class and one of the largest of all ...

 

Edited June 13, 2014 by MarisStella.hr

[Doreltomin]

@MarisStella:

 

Just my two cents on scales: If you have to choose between 1:48 and 1:59... I would say to do yourself a favour and choose the 1:48 which is an usual scale. It has been widely used by ship modellers since the 17th century and it is included into the so called "Museum Standard". Your model will be some 29% bigger yet this alone wouldn't be too bad when you will have to fight with small details!

 

It is better to avoid odd numbers in scale and stick with the regular ones. Just by itself you will not notice anything different, yet when your model will be closer to another built in a regular scale, it will look different.

 

Have a look here on scales:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scale_model_sizes

[Cristiano]

Cristiano, is LAHARPE the largest Venetian ship that ended up in the hands of the Austro-Hungarian Empire? Which is the largest Venetian ship that ended up in the hands of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

 

 

Hello, theoretically yes.

not all the Venetian ships arrived in the hands of the Austro-hungarians, only few.

Many remained under the French flag in Tolone or Corfù.

The Austro-hungarian take control of the Venetian ships that they found in the cities that they conquered.

La Harpe was captured by the Austro-hungarian in 1799 because it was anchored in  Ancona when they conquered the city.

But it was judged in bad conditions and sent to Venezia for repairs.

In 1802, when it was still under repairs, it was converted in "floating jail" and anchored in Venice.

Well, to be clear, it sailed under the Austrian flag only for the travel from Ancona to Venice...

La Harpe was a "1780" class, not a "Fama" class.

The last of the "Fama" class were Le Stengel and Le Beyrand.

But again, both those above ships, even in the hands of Austro-Hungarians, more or less never sailed under Austrian flag.

Le Stengel:

was captured near Ancona in 1799 and send later to Venice for urgent repair (the only travel done with austrian-hungarian flag).

It arrived in Venice half-sinked and was converted in a pontoon.

in 1804 the pontoon sinked completely.

was keep floating again in 1805 and converted in floating cannon battery.

then again converted in pontoon by second French occupation. in 1814 was demolished.

Le Beyrand:

after few campaigns under French flags, was converted in 1799 in floating cannon battery and anchored in Ancona.

the same year the ship was found sinked by the Austrian when conquered Ancona.

on summer 1800 was keep floating again and sent to Venezia.

It was demolished in 1803, but probably was used as a pontoon in those years.

 

If you need more informations, let me know.

The Venice ships under austrian and french domination changed name and flag many times in few years, and were not maintained properly.

The largest part of the Venetian fleet was destroyed methodically by the French soldiers when still anchored or in the shipyard, when they conquered Venice.

The Napoleon fury was a political signal, to punish the Venetians for not having supported him against Austro-hungarian empire.

So few ships remained intact after that methodic destruction.

When the French naval engineers arrived to Venice for evaluating the ships to be incorporated in the French fleet, it was almost too late, since the largest part were destroyed.

The one that was largerly saved was the Venetian fleet of Corfù.

So the net result of above considerations is that the Austro-hungarian empire has not taken many ships, but very very few.

[MarisStella.hr]

Cristiano, Hi,   I studied Austrian book Das Erbe der Serenissima, it is, in the main,  everything in it ... attached drawings are extraordinary ... The Italian book  Vascello e frigate  della Serenissima has  the history and technical data of the ships in it... I have to study a bit more , I would like to collect data of the largest Venetian ship of the line, with the most guns, that sailed ... let's be in touch please...

 

Best regards, Zoran
 

[Cristiano]

The biggest ships that sailed under the Venetian flag were probably the "Leon Trionfante" class.

They had 70 cannons.

The limit was not the technical knowledge of the Venetian engineers, but their...lagoon.

Since the lagoon has low depth, was not possible to maintain adeguately large ships.

In addition the "overprotected" Venetian shipyard (The Arsenale) entrance has a width limit for the passage of ships (see the attached photo, where now there is a bridge).

For the depth, the "camels" where used, but for the width...no solutions!

The first one, the "Leon Trionfante" that gave the name to the class, was a successful project and generated many ships.

Technically you can find several drawings of it in the book:

-page 107 and 142: complete drawings of the hull;

-page 170:stern prospective view (see photo);

-page 180: bow prospective view (see photo);

-page 182: sail plans of the leon trionfante class.

-page 242/243: complete hystory, cannon types, number and size and all the lenghts

-pag. 155: colours of those type of ships.

 

There are complete drawings available of "Aquila Valiera", again of 70 cannons, but an older type of ship.

The complete drawings unfortunately are in the other book: "Duri i banchi!"

[MarisStella.hr]

Is not it CLASSE "1780"  a bit bigger ? LAHARPE has 74 cannons ... I have the complete drafts of originals for LAHARPE,  LE STENGEL and LE BEYRAND ...

[Cristiano]

Is up to you, but consider that La Harpe has never sailed under venetian flag.

 

Came out from the Arsenale with French flag (and French name).

It was projected for 74 cannons but the French armed it with 70 cannons (28 of 25 french lb., 28 of 18 french lb, 14 of 8 french lb.)

I have not evidences that it was armed with 74 cannons.

Its life was very short and not so glorious (see my previous post).

So, are you sure that you want to build a ship with such sad history?

 

The "Leon Trionfante" parteciped to many naval battles and ended its life naturally after 24 years.

It can be considered at least a piece of Venetian history.

But I know that you are focused on a different historic period and the Leon Trionfante came out from shipyard on 1716 (too early probably for your desired period of time)

[MarisStella.hr]

You're right ... I'll see what I have of the vessel "Leon Trionfante"...