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About Doreltomin

  • Birthday 06/30/1958

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  • Location
    Constanta, Romania
  • Interests
    17th century ships, 19th century ironclads

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  1. Hello Andrew, Thanks for your input. Actually I do not know how this material my have been called properly in English, but it seems to be the same material I was talking about. Using your hint I have found a wikipedia reference on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drafting_linen It is a very fine textile, however even this one can only be used for large scale models ranging from 1:10 up to 1:50 or something. Beyond this I believe Wefalck's suggestion on using paper instead is the only correct alternative!
  2. Huh, interesting question! Actually in our space age, with our computers and robots and stuff should we be able to do something like a very fine cloth. But is there any need for this, except for modelling purposes? The only answer which comes to my mind is not new, but rather old: the fabric which was once used to reinforce the backside of transparent papers used to copy plans on it.It is a kind of material which I believe was discontinued in production some time before Second World War, or slightly after it, when the use of new material like plastics developed. A friend of mine has a piece of such old transparent paper which he keeps jealously and uses to put pieces of it into water for a long time, until the transparent part dissolves and leaves only the fabric. It is then ready for use as sailcloth for ship models! Another answer for fine fibers may come to mind from the books which we all read as kids. Do you remember Captain Nemo and the clothes of his crew? Jules Verne talks about fine tissue done with fibers taken from mollusks, which he calls byssus. While the Nautilus itself was only a fantasy story (but what a story!) the byssus thing is not. See it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_silk However, insofar I know today there are just a couple of people in the islands of Southern Italy which know how to make such tissues, and I am not sure if it's good enough for our modelling purpose.
  3. Fascinating subject! Thank you Mark for starting it and everybody else for their valuable information added to the thread!
  4. Hello everybody, I completely agree with you that the stub mast and bowsprit are modern additions - it shows from the colour of the wood. However, the rest of the model looks genuine - at least to my eyes. Whether it is real or just a modern conception done with the aim to deceive, mimicking an old model, cannot tell just from seeing a picture. However all the details look authentic even if the deck covering is intriguing. As for the "fire buckets", I also thought they were just a bit odd decorations, nothing more. Generally speaking, when someone tries to mimic an old model, besides great care taken to make the materials look old they carefully avoid strange, unnatural details not seen elsewhere. Now if you analyze this model, it shows as if its builder didn't care whether the details he uses were seen elsewhere in real period models, be them in museums or private collections - he seems just concerned with showing the details of the real ship as best as he could. Again, cannot tell, it may be a recent model built by a exceptionally skilled modeller, or a genuine Georgian model. Now if you ask me, I would go for the later.
  5. http://www.charlesmillerltd.com/Catalogues/ms301013/lot0347.html Hi Druxey & all, Here is the link to the said model. Certainly for yachts deck covering was not temporary! However we must keep in mind that yachts were the luxury limousines of the times so these little ships were finished in a style not matched by the common warships!
  6. Hello Engeland, First of all, I believe your picture does not show a real wooden ship, but instead a replica used for movies. The extreme left of the picture certainly shows an iron hull where the orange spots are rusty patches. If so, the ship is something like a ghost ship where gray-black planks, masts and even sails would seem appropriate. But natural wood from which sailing ships were made doesn't show this colour neither at the beginning, nor when it goes older. Instead they look something like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/20110417_Lelystad%3B_Batavia_Haven_12_ship_at_Batavia_Harbour.JPG The hulls were made of oak planks protected with a mixture of pitch and tar. When saying tar, you would not think of nowadays tar derived from oil which is mainly black, but instead of some wood distillates which were mostly brownish in colour.
  7. Hello Mark, I just have stumbled upon this thread of yours and read everything which was written here so far. Interesting thing, I am also very passionate of English yachts although my favourite period starts a bit earlier with the Stuarts dynasty. Just some quick thoughts for now: yes, painted canvas glued with wet paint over the deck and lately painted over was common practice on English Yachts from the Stuart period already. It was thought a good way to protect the quality people inside the cabins from the water seeping between the planks - at the time, it was somehow inevitable due to the imperfections of the deck caulking. However, the paint colour was not a common grey... instead it was either the same bulwark red or sometimes even more fancy things like a checkered black and white pattern! But if it is thought that the ship portrayed is new / in the trials, then it may be possible either that the decks are covered with old canvas tarpaulins to protect them, or alternatively that the canvas deck coverings is not yet painted. However, it is certain that the cover of the middle cabin was already painted in red so we may ask ourselves why they would have painted that and not the decks. As an aside comment, the same technique of painted canvas was used with 19th century railway carriages. Their tops were made of wood, carefully caulked and then a canvas top was laid over and painted. Usually white at the beginning - at least in Britain or Austria- , which white would later became a darker and darker shade of gray. Not from the movie, but from the locomotive's smoke and ashes.... The pinky colours of the galley chimney and the lower part of the mast: the chimney was in fact a copper tube whose colour when new is, as you know, pinkish and later it turns to a darker pink-grey or even dark green when oxidizes. The same goes for the lower part of the mast, which was coppered up to a certain level to protect the wood against the water spraying from the deck. Hope this helps
  8. Excellent resource, Admiral Paris is one of the classics... thank you very much grsjax and all! Just in case, for all the non French-speakers which have difficulties to download the resource: to download you must first check the box which says En cochant cette caisse, je recconais avoir pris... etc. It is just a check that you agree with the terms and conditions on which you have to click first, otherwise the download does not happen!
  9. One must not forget that Royal Ships of the 17th century were not only powerful machines of war, they were first of all a display of force of the respective kingdoms. Nor do this happens just to our human race, it is the same with other species: take for example the lions, where the dominant lion has an almost superfluous mane which can be seen from miles away, yet loses it when loses supremacy among his group! The same goes for or the bright colours of birds' feathers, which are used to attract females but also as a display of power... the more powerful the male, the brighter the colours! Moreover, colours in 17th century ships were not only used to make ships more pleasant/attractive and a bold declaration of power. The main reason was practical: to protect the wood against the rough elements. I have also wondered at first why they would put a lot of gold leaf on something which is basically a machine to kill? The plain answer is that gold leaf is one of the most effective ways to protect wood against elements and this was learn from a long time ago. One must not forget that Egyptian pharaohs had their wooden furniture and coffins covered in gold leaf at first for practical reasons! Unlike other known materials like iron or copper, gold does not decay with time therefore covering things in gold on the long term comes out cheaper than covering it in other decaying materials which would mean in several years you have to strip down the protection and renew. Of course covering all the ship in gold leaf would cost a fortune therefore they had to make a balance of costs and added in also other materials. One more point is that bright colours were seen only when the paint was new. It might therefore be correct for a model of the unfortunate Wasa to have bright colours since she is one of the few ships known to have capsized only after 20 minutes of navigation. But for most of the 17th century ships it may be taken as certain that their paints were faded off after several weeks of navigation on rough seas. Therefore it is again a matter of choice from the modeller, how you would to display your model? be it in bright colours just as recently taken out of the building yard, or battered after several weeks of navigation on heavy seas? The choice is known also in other modelling branches: some prefer to run their locomotives and railway stock as brand new, others take their time and talent to make them look weathered!
  10. Hi Moony, The image you posted actually comes from a book written by George Frederick Campbell which is called "China tea clippers" , 1954. As for your question, back in 1860 there were two situations: there were either well known shipbuilding companies which gradually switched from wooden construction to iron, therefore they had to buy iron profiles including iron plates from a local supplier or there was the inverse situation where an iron company extended their trade into shipbuilding. There are also known cases when two well known firms, one in iron working, the other in shipbuilding, start to work together. In both cases they borrowed some practices from the previous wooden construction like the distance between frames. In a lengthy process of trial and error they learned the proper thickness of an iron plate for a said distance between the frames, just as in the case of the wooden builds. Then they bought the appropriate plates either from a local supplier or had them made to specifications. So the thickness varied with the distance between frames, which in turn varied with the length of the ship, and their choice was more or less the job of the ship designer. Smaller ships had a smaller distance between the frames, bigger ships had more. Just to make you an image, the plates were offered in a wide range of thicknesses, the standard being much the same as today: https://www.tedpella.com/company_html/gauge.htm So I am afraid the only correct answer to your question is: find the original drawings of the ship and you will find also the correct thickness of the plates, there is no standard!
  11. Hello Gary, the answer to your question is, as always "depends" Depends on epoch and more important, depends on nationality. One thing is certain, the gunports were cut after the deck beams were placed in place and the deck was laid, so that the lower and upper sill were always put parallel to the deck. Now there is a wide debate even among the members of this forum whether the other two sides are put square to the upper and lower or were put parallel to the frames. Some say the first, some say the second. In the first case the lids would be rectangles with square corners, in the next they would be slightly parallelograms in shape. One thing is certain: square (which is, with the height equal to the width) they never were. Tell us which nationality and which epoch your ship is, then we may come out with a more detailed answer!
  12. Hi Jason, While I can't give any answer (yet) to your riddle, I really appreciate this one! An old building which incorporates parts of an HMS Whatsthename... really interesting, will follow with much interest! By the way, googling is of almost no use here.... as long as you can't know precisely what to look for So far I only found the story of the Resolute Desk from the White House, made from the wood of HMS Resolute. Interesting story, but of no use for our quiz!
  13. Actually I also had some trouble with port and starboard, simply because in my own language we use the French terms (babord and tribord). However some time ago I learned the English terms come from Viking times: "starboard" is in fact the "Steering-board" as the Viking ships were always steered with an steering oar put on the right side of the ship. So if they had the steering oar always on the right, they landed always with the left side on the quay, so this was the "port" (harbour) side. As simple as "bonjour" (which is "Good day" in French). And, by the way, the story goes that "babord" and "tribord" comes from mid 19th century when the French had several floating batteries used as depot ships. Each battery had the name "BATTERIE" and the number below, written with big white letters going all over on the round stern. So if you were looking from the left side, you would see "BA.... ". If you were looking from the right side, you would see "....TERIE". So this is from where they got the names "BA-bord" and "TERIE-bord" As with your strakes, you should start with the first under the wales put parallel to it, then go down and taper the strake at the stem and at the stern as you see it necessary. Keep in mind that with the real thing they did never have straight long planks the size of the whole ship. Instead they used several shorter planks put in line for every strake, and as need arose, these planks were curved to make the proper round of the bow. Good luck with your planking!
  14. I support Don9of11's view, if you do not have a table saw or other power tools to make the groove, you can still do it by using two strips glued to a larger piece of wood. An incidental advantage of the method would be that you can glue only the inner strip; the outer strip of wood will be glued or even pinned after the case has been made and after the glass has been put to place, to retain it securely in its wooden frame. If incidentally your glass breaks, you will just have to take the pins off or cut out the outer strip, take out the pieces of glass and put another glass panel in its place.
  15. If you have to do many similar pieces it is better to make yourself a wooden jig the form you want your piece bent, otherwise will be difficult to get all the pieces in the same shape; if you make them by the hand there will be inherent dimensional variations from one piece to another. Wish you good luck with your hammock rails!

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If you enjoy building ship models that are historically accurate as well as beautiful, then The Nautical Research Guild (NRG) is just right for you.

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