CaptArmstrong

Canute · September 28, 2015

I thought the Hackett family built the Hancock, Alliance, and Essex? not the Raleigh, Alliance, and Essex? i should certainly think there would be similarites between the Alliance and Essex, but it seems unlikely to me that they were as similar as say, Constitution and Constellation- there was 20 years of shipbuilding development between them and one would think the Hacketts kept up with that through the ships they built inbetween, incorporating the knowledge into the form of the Essex.

Canute · September 26, 2015

Nice conjectural draughts! I think it makes some sense that alliance differs from confederacy-the two were of similar size but by no means the same dimensions. It might've been deemed prudent to have a more conventional frigate design for alliance instead of taking the risk of having both large frigates be galley frigates. I'd like to see the stretching conducted with the Hancock rather than Raleigh-though I do admit the profile and transom of the Raleigh derived alliance look nice and balanced. I just think the Raleigh had lines a bit fuller than ideal for a frigate, though I see the historical lineage as why he chose it as the model as making perfect sense.

On the topic of the Hancock-upon close comparison, I wonder if it was actually a modified version of the Randolph design, with a more upright stem and corresponding hollow in the garboards. Though Hancock was 4 feet longer, 1 foot wider, and 6 inches deeper, it had the exact same length:breadth ratio as Randolph. Maybe some newer research has discussed that, but I'm fairly certain Chapelle considered them as separate designs in the same way that Randolph clearly differs from the Raleigh.

CharlieZardoz · September 19, 2015

Artists, however, have been known to use 'stock' images in their paintings, so, even though Baugean and Roux painted very believable ships, there may be inaccuracies which we will never be able to refute. It's just one of those things we have to deal with when trying to research these vessels.

fair enough for small details and certainly other artists, and I think there might be one instance where one of the later roux painters copied Antoine's Constellation for use as a British frigate-but overall Antoine roux and JJ baugean are benchmarks of reliability, and shouldn't be lumped in with the likes of bevan for having generic ships-if even for the simple reason that no two ships are the same in their paintings.

avsjerome2003 · September 13, 2015

That painting seems to show the right features-number of gunports, low bulwarks yet not flush decked, a particularly high length:breadth ratio. I believe the artist is Irwin bevan, he made a number of water colors depicting the smaller actions of the war of 1812-many of which were in Caxton pictoral histories naval war of 1812.

A few are here:

http://www.humanitie...rd-june-21-1807

http://www.artnet.co...auction-results

At least in terms of his 1812 works I've found him to pay good attention to rigs, size, and armaments-but his transoms and headrails all tend to be generic for frigates and sloops of war-so I doubt it is anything more than a representation in that respect. He did do a painting of the Adams being burnt which is in that book, though the transom looks little different from that of the uss United States he painted linked above.

Also, has anyone looked through the works of JJ baugean when studying the Adams and John Adams? He did a number of unidentified small us frigates while they were stationed in the Mediterranean. I've never found them all in one spot, but here are the 2 most easily found as an example.

http://www.daveblackman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/USS_Boston_1799.jpg

http://imageweb-cdn.magnoliasoft.net/nmm/supersize/pu7378.jpg

As a contemporary with an eye for detail and seemingly good accuracy in well known ships, they could be insightful

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-N0VJyiHCd4Y/UhyeiiLsTVI/AAAAAAAAAYM/cE8pxHtx9kQ/s1600/President+frigate.jpg

uss frolick · July 5, 2015

With his foolish alterations to the John Adams, I cannot help but wonder yet again how bainbridge was as successful as he was. He was reportedly a good seaman and navigator, but was tyrannical to his crew(slashing a man who dared speak to him first with a sabre) lost several warships to the enemy on fairly foreseeable errors of judgement, botched the building or repair of several warships badly (JA and 74 gun independence)-and enabled the early death of Stephen Decatur by urging the duel to continue as Decatur and Barron began to make amends. He just doesn't seem of the same calibre of leader and captain as Decatur, Hull, Stewart, Rodgers etc.

By my recollection Eckford was just told to design a corvette-had he been told the intended armament was 24pdrs I'm sure he could've come up with something better than what was chosen. (Which ended up being problematic until finally enlarged into the new cyane and levant design) Really they should've tried for 18-22x18pdrs, rather than trying to jump all the way to long 24s on a corvette. Perhaps they should've come up with refined versions of the corvette JA and A, and a new design to similar dimensions to trial against eachother for the larger 1820s corvette

CharlieZardoz · June 19, 2015

I can't help but doubt that painting's accuracy entirely-the vessels look more like whaling ships than frigates.

Uss frolick-solid research! I have that book and know the picture you are talking about-though I don't have access to it right now

hexnut · June 19, 2015

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43901618/CA/misc/screens/Southampton/42.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43901618/CA/misc/screens/Southampton/43.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43901618/CA/misc/screens/Southampton/44.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43901618/CA/misc/screens/Southampton/45.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43901618/CA/misc/screens/Southampton/46.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43901618/CA/misc/screens/Southampton/47.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43901618/CA/misc/screens/Southampton/48.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43901618/CA/misc/screens/Southampton/49.JPG

uss frolick · June 17, 2015

I recognize the corvette painting from this book http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/1840673605where I believe it is identified as the John Adams. She was a fine looking ship in this state!

The painting of the sterns is remarkable, particularly for that of the constitution! It is close enough to the 1812 hull model for me to think they are the same , http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/OnlineLibrary/photos/pers-us/uspers-h/i-hull-x.htmand based especially off the quarter galleries might be the original, particularly given the quite close resembelence of president's stern in this contemporary print by baugean

http://imageweb-cdn.magnoliasoft.net/nmm/supersize/pu7389.jpg

http://www.maphouse.co.uk/photos/m2918.jpg

He also did one of United States vs Macedonian which shows it better, I'll post a link if I can find it

mtaylor · June 16, 2015

There was allegedly a full set of plans of the lengthened USS Adams. The late Dr. William M. P. Dunne, of SUNY, told me that Howard Chapelle had them at home in preparation for his sailing Navy Book in the 1940s, but he got in a final knock-down fight with his soon-to-be ex-wife, and she reportedly burned them, along with several others (USS Portsmouth too) that belonged to the Fox Papers of the Peabody Museum in Salem Mass. How true this is, I don't know, but Dr. Dunne was in a position to know.

Wow. What a tragedy-both personal and for history. Would've loved to get my hands on plans of the Adams after lengthening, the prospect of a big fast 18pdr armed corvette is inspiring to be sure. I did actually go to the extent of modifying the plans of the 24 gun ship mentioned earlier to be representative of a cut down and lengthened Adams.-figuring that she was known for being too fine lined for a 28, that a 24 gun american sixth rate of the same year might be a good approximation. I scaled the breath and then added the length in her midsection necessary to fit the lengthened dimension (though not 15 feet extra) the depth is of course slightly off. deck and plank sheer were modified to match, new headrails added, and the gunports and chains were rearranged accordingly to the different scale and dimensions. While only the loosest of representations, the concept might be a somewhat decent approximation in the complete absence of plans, if pursued further and properly.

The John Adams find is great, and the Continental frigates-Thanks for posting! I wonder what the sources are, though they look quite believable. However, the john adams sailplan seems to be a copy of chapelle's for the Philadelphia, but with fewer gunports. I wasn't aware that Bainbridge had made her a jackass frigate after she was cut down, 22 x 42pdrs and good sailing qualities should've been plenty. For seeing as much fame, success, and recognition as he did, that captain made a lot of mistakes

CharlieZardoz · June 14, 2015

Can't wait! Oh the 24 gun ship certainly is not the Adams or John Adams, but if the hull form is a somewhat close match when scaled, we might have a better idea about the designer, principles that went into both, and thus identity. I think Chapelle hypothesized that they were an improved version of the quasi war corvettes like Patapsco, Maryland, and Connecticut. At any rate, very excited about the John Adams!

June 14, 2015

Three John Adams 1799 plans do survive, enough for a complete reconstruction. Chapelle missed them.

1. Original body lines, pre 1829: National Archives, presumably (published in Charleston's Maritime Heritage, Coker.)

2. Out board profile, which includes partial inboard profile, partial waterlines (or are they diagonal projections?), as designed, 1/4" scale

Peabody Museum, Fox Papers. Note twenty-four broadside ports, but with no bridle port. The latter was added, along with a five feet extension of keel in Charleston. Not labeled as JA in Fox Papers.

3. Half-breadth of Decks, all, with stowage, 1/8th scale, as converted to a corvette, circa 1807, Fox papers. Position of projected stern chase ports indicate an original six window design, with ports in the two and five windows, with the others planked over. All they did was remove the spar deck in 1807-08. Shows length, mast and gunport position as built. (Labeled as "Decks Chesapeake" in Fox Papers, by some long dead, blind, crack-smoking staff volunteer!!)

I forgot one!

4. There is an inboard profile plan from the 1850s showing her final configuration. I've seen it, but I don't have a copy, from the NA, that shows ten ports aside - down from the 1829 rebuild's twelve - a full projecting stem-post, and a sketch of her bust figurehead.

What a find!! :dancetl6: How much decorative detail is there? (partial transom in 1. and 3? headrails in all four?) does it bear any similarities to the 24 gun ship of 1799 (figure 22, pg.155 of the blue cover edition of History of the American Sailing Navy) found by Chapelle? Also one confusing point, I thought that while both Adams and John Adams were cut down prior to the War of 1812, only Adams was lengthened?

January 22, 2015

None of the Artois class was named Hercules.

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/8476-can-anyone-name-this-38-gun-artois-class-fifth-rate-frigate-of-the-royal-navy/?p=275346

January 21, 2015

I have them in my copy of Howard Chapelle's history of the American sailing navy, but they should be available from the Smithsonian http://americanhistory.si.edu/about/departments/work-and-industry/ship-plans

The figurehead appears to be similarly clothed and posed, but with the club held slightly differently.

January 21, 2015

Hmm from what I recall you could hold down shift and it would move in one direction, or you could lock the points in that direction, but I could be getting mixed up with another program.

Lieckio · January 8, 2015

Update time:

as of right now I'm thinking I'll remove the waist gunport lids as per Richmond and Alarm class models in the NMM collections.

mtaylor · January 8, 2015

Recognizably the USS Essex of 1799. 26x12pdrs, though could be 28 if someone filled the bridle ports. 12xQD guns, 2-4xF'csle guns, depending on the year. Figurehead is quite close to the Chapelle draught of the vessel. Artois class had less tumblehome, no forecastle rails (no rails or solid bulwarks there was British practice) and generally had a bit different shape.

http://www.stephens-kenau.com/uss_essex-product-view-29.html

http://s619.photobucket.com/user/Jocool123/media/Buffcon%202013/14_zpsa3c5c348.jpg.html

http://www.shipmodel.com/models/essex-waterline-model

http://www.shipmodel.com/models/essex-full-hull

http://blog-imgs-37.fc2.com/c/o/r/corniche/2013030100293960a.jpg

http://blog-imgs-37.fc2.com/c/o/r/corniche/20130301003002319.jpg

http://blog-imgs-37.fc2.com/c/o/r/corniche/20130301002941202.jpg

January 7, 2015

Nice tutorial! I've started about half a dozen ships in delftship that i completed with other programs, and I'd say this covers most important aspects. one trick I've found to make the hull easier to shape accurately is to give the same fore-aft value to all of the station points in the vertical lines, so that you only have to worry about moving them in two directions-making the shape more predictable.

January 7, 2015

Brilliant work! the ship is absolutely lovely, with an unheard of attention to detail. The animated characters are certainly promising additions as well!

Lieckio · July 6, 2014

Ahoy all!

I am a team member and coordinator with Hearts of Oak, an upcoming Nautical/seafaring/naval/piratical game initially set in the mid 18th century, being developed by the long-standing game modifying community at a website called PiratesAhoy!.

http://www.heartsofoakgame.com/

Hopefully that gives some context for what I am doing, because though I can build in a good amount of detail, I cannot, for example, build in as much detail as the absolutely stunning 3D model of the HMS Pandora on these forums. This is because of the requirements of a game engine and the abilities of most people's computers. Anyway, hopefully what I come up with is at least somewhat visually pleasing.

Quite some time ago a 3D shipbuilder named Bava(who has been active on these forums) started building a model of the HMS Southampton, and though he progressed quite far, he eventually lost interest in the project.

http://modelshipworld.com/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-395-0-97196500-1361961947.jpg

http://richardsmodelboats.webs.com/32gunfrigate.htm

As he worked with me for Hearts of Oak, the opportunity came up to finish the ship, and I flattered myself by taking it on

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43901618/CArmstrong/misc/screens/Southampton/16.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43901618/CArmstrong/misc/screens/Southampton/20.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43901618/CArmstrong/misc/screens/Southampton/21.JPG

http://media.moddb.com/images/games/1/20/19616/12.JPG

While there is certainly still much to be done, I have a few questions that might be answerable with the expertise so often shown here.

Should I add camber to the hatches? EDIT-yes of course, done
Should the gunport lids in the waist be removed? I am not entirely sure when that practice ended.(probably will do)
I had to make an odd bend in the bottom of the chainplates as they meet the hull on the wale but extend below it. Would that have been feasable, or should I add thickness to the parts below the wale instead?
Might this vessel have been fitted with a skylight? Nothing is shown on the Quarterdeck aft of the mizzen in the plans, which is unusual. However with this ship being somewhat of an experiment at the time it was built, there were several features that were different from later frigates.

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