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ClipperFan
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TheAuthorsDaughter Arina, it occured to me that the sole image of Glory's Starboard Broadside on level viewpoint "Glory of the Seas at San Pedro dock 1907" is from 'Tall Ships on Puget Sound' published Nov 7, 2007. I made a copy of the page from the book I bought years ago and shared in on this site for personal research only, not to make a profit. What I don't know is this. Since your dad is a published author, is it a copyright infringement to share this with our friend in Australia? If so, there are lots of copies of this book available for roughly $5.00. One could be bought and sent to him.
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What is it with Donald McKay and fires anyway? His first Extreme Clipper "Staghound" burnt to the waterline, the same fate happened to two of the four James Baines Australian line Clippers "Lightning" and his namesake "James Baines." There was the horrific fiery loss of "Ocean Monarch" a magnificent Packet Ship. Poor "Great Republic" herself didn't ignite but sparks from a nearby bakery lit her up. She burned to the waterline and finally was scuttled to extinguish the flames. Although famous Captain NB Palmer salvaged her, due to intense fire damage, she was relaunched basically as a razee, with her 4th deck entirely removed and her once impressive rig greatly reduced in size. In Richard McKay's book, there's a tale of the tragic fate of almost all of Donald McKay's Builder's models. It's related, I think by his son who submitted his authentic half Hull of "Staghound" to a Boston Maritime Museum. He states that it was personally constructed using precise dimensions, taken from loft lines, as the vessel was being built. Apparently Donald used his priceless models as raw fuel kindling to stay warm during the cold winters in rural Massachusetts. All lost to fire. Now we learn that even historic notes themselves have also perished in.... fire, what else?
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druxey Now we're talking scientific precision! I took a compass to the image on my phone and it appears to be a 5 degree incline backwards. Also it does appear that while below the waterline, she appears arrow straight, it's not exactly, as the edge curves forward ever so minutely. I've also read that Glory's Hull was sheathed with yellow metal up to 22'. Knowing that fact, we can measure her height above the waterline. My phone is too small to accurately calculate this but visually it appears that her dimensions above the waterline are slightly more than below. My estimate from Keel to Monkeyrail is close to 50'. Her measurements at Starboard loading port can be calculated by counting strakes, which have been published as being 6 1/2" each. Unless anybody else has a more accurate count, this is the number found from a clear enough image of Glory on the ways: waterline to bottom of port 9 strakes, 58 1/2", side of port 4 strakes, 26" ; port to main deck lower molding 7 strakes, 45 1/2" total= 130" or 10.83' probably 11'. main deck rail height is 5', monkey rail above that is 18", 1 1/2'. I don't know if three 6" moldings (lower main, upper main and monkey rail) add to height or not, excluding them she's 17 1/2' above waterline. Counting depth for moldings she's 19'. Combined with a 22' waterline below that comes to either 39 1/2' or 41' at her Starboard loading dock.
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It's possible this scene shows her with royals fiddled, either because the weather is calm and quiet or because she's just beginning her long tow from Washington to Alaska and they haven't been lowered yet. Obviously scenes of Glory before that Mizzen monstrosity were earlier in her career. Her conversion to become a floating Salmon canning factory extended her years of service. While it was an innovative first, sadly it led to her ultimate doom. When Boston merchants were considering the costs to transform her back to McKay's original Clipper Ship configuration, it was added expense to remove all of the factory processing modifications that made them conclude it was too expensive to save her.....
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I hated to see that mizzen helm house, it disfigured the masts and yards so poorly. It signifies to me how much the owners disrespected her Clipper Ship lineage. From a coldly practical, functional viewpoint, I'm sure it was a benefit to the helmsman but God what an awful sight!
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Rob, What a great catch on the arc of the Cutwater being a section of a circle! I always sensed it was something like that but just couldn't quite see it so clearly until you highlighted it just now. It's also clear that her prow below the waterline isn't verticle but more of a slight incline back. It should be possible to extrapolate that precise degree on a compass setting. Any idea what that is? In his day, Donald McKay was reverently referred to as a Marine Mechanic by Duncan McLean of the Boston Daily Atlas. All of his vessels were scientifically laid out according to the latest hydrodynamic principles available and Donald was famous as an innovator. For example, British Ship builders were so uncomfortable with the radical Bow of the "Lightning" that they tacked on additional cladding to fix what they considered to be a flaw in his design! This obviously infuriated Mr. McKay. Fortunately, their awkward addition couldn't last long, as waves washed it all off. "Lightning" then proceeded to shatter records on her journeys from England to Australia. She became famous as one of the fastest vessels on that route. As for our desire to complete this project correctly, after a decades long "relentless pursuit of perfection" I know we all can afford to be patient. However, there's Mr. Mjelde's looming deadline to consider. From your meeting that sounds like it's coming up fairly soon. Didn't you say that the manuscript for his third publication is already complete? So, I'm going to redouble my efforts to get this done at the full scale we originally discussed. Meanwhile, I don't suppose Mr. Mjelde or Arina TheAuthorsDaughter gave you any idea when the final publishing deadline for his third book would be? My other concern is not wanting to insult Ron Haug's work. But if it comes to a choice between that and seeing yet another inaccurate lines plan, what else do you think we should do? Do you think there's enough time to collaborate with Ron, to show him our research? I've got to believe that everyone wants to be faithful to Mr. McKay's genuine article. To all of us who love Donald's Clipper Ships, even Medium Clippers, it's important to get it right. My sense is, just like the "Great Republic" was a pioneer of the great four masted Barks which followed years later, "Glory of the Seas" wasn't quite a 'Down Easter' but was a definite precursor to them. We have to continue to make as strong as possible a case in defense of Donald McKay's unique creation. Don't we owe it to his memory? After all this time, it would be a shame to see yet another flawed lines plan published, when there now appears to be plenty of visible evidence to contradict it.
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Rob, Here's a more clear pic from Michael Mjelde's first book. Both Bow and Stern are consistent with other images. I also found the Clipper "Lightning" lines, drafted by Donald McKay himself. This is from the North Star Books publication.
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Rob, I almost forgot, you're welcome. I love finding these really neat publications. Often, especially in the 50s & 60s books geared towards younger audiences have some surprisingly rare photos, paintings and ship's blueprints. I don't know if you've ever heard of this but I just ordered it. "Around in the Glory: Chronicle of the 42nd Voyage of 'Glory of the Seas' around Cape Horn" by the ship's captain Daniel McLaughlin. Description says it's illustrated. If it contains any new images, I will certainly share them.
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druxey The bow below the waterline is straight until the last 3 yellow metal plates, then it curves just so slightly before the turn towards the keel bottom. The larger point I was making is that the Bow below the waterline isn't vertical.
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Rob, Your plumb lines are perfect. Now observe the thin wedge shape that's created by the lines between the anchor line, the Cutwater and Glory's long Hull below the waterline. It's not verticle but slopes slightly backwards. I don't know yet how to draw lines on images, so I edit them instead. I've cropped Walters oil, Glory's broadside (which to me is the most accurate Hull shape to date, since it's fairly level with the observation line) and my Hull reconstruction. From what I see, the photo shows the most pronounced prow. Comparing all of these images, all 3 Hulls look consistent and to me at least the sole one that doesn't, is the new proposed Hull.
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"Donald McKay & the Clipper Ships" by Mary Ellen Chase - North Star Books 1959 This is a children's book. Amazingly, an exceedingly rare blueprint of McKay's Clipper "Lightning" as well as the sole right side image of Glory's Greek Goddess Figurehead and Glory on the Ways are all reproduced inside. Google it & this particular example is currently available for $19.00.
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Rob, Thanks for your patience with my dogged determination to pursue accuracy at all costs. It's just these Hull lines don't, for lack of a better word.... feel right. I realize that's totally subjective but for the past decade, I've been working on getting a scientifically accurate representation, based on all available photographic evidence. Actually I was encouraged to see the San Pedro image since the poorly reproduced image of my sketch was done several years before it was published. Vladimir, If you were to use flesh tones to paint her exposed areas, you would be amazed to see how skimply clad she really is. Erotic is an accurate term, yet somehow she is alluring and innocently beautiful at the same time. The only right side image is from a very affordable children's book which also has the only full lines of McKay's fabled Clipper "Lightning." I'll find a copy of the cover and share it.
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Michael Mjelde deserves our universal gratitude and appreciation for his incredible personalization of Donald McKay's longest lived vessel "Glory of the Seas." Decades later, I am still fired up by this incredible vessel. In port, contemporaries described her as an impressive Clipper of enormous beauty. My total goal, as I'm sure Rob and Mr Mjelde has too, is to see the genuine form of McKay's last Clipper be realised as precisely as possible. "Perspective distortion" is the devil we're dealing with, as it's damnably difficult to get accurate proportions but not impossible. Using her Port anchor and Bobstay as true verticle plumblines, gravity is pulling both free standing objects directly down, it's possible to estimate other angles. Glory's on an inclined plane in order to launch her when ready. Drawing an extended line from the bottom of her keel where it intersects with a verticle plumbline from her anchor, reveals that her waterline below isn't verticle but has an ever slight incline backwards. Knowing her figurehead is 90" from head to toe, it's obvious she projects at least 15' from her Cutwater since the carved arch she resides on is slightly longer than her. The Cutwater curves gracefully almost to the waterline where is straightens out. Another factor to remember is that Glory was specifically designed to batter her way around Cape Horn through some of the toughest seas on the planet. Looking at observable samples of McKay's vessels, there is a similarity of designs which supports a more aggressive prow. To support my position about a more "extreme prow" I've reversed Walters' painting followed it with the broadside of the actual Ship in Port. It's amazing how much the two hulls match in profile. If you look at the close up detail of Glory in port and compare her photographic image to the proposed new Bow, they just don't match. Run a verticle line up from her prow where she's practically straight and look at the clear wedge shape that emerges; compare the same verticle line in the new Bow, those shapes will not match. Finally, a much smaller, lighter stern is visible in both Walters painting and broadside photo. Again, they are remarkably similar. Compare them to the proposed new stern and they just don't match either. It makes me wonder, of all the many images Ron Haug has, does he even have the broadside from San Pedro? It's my burning passion, as I'm sure is Mr MJelde's, Mr Haug's, Rob's and everyone else on this forum to see Donald McKay's wonderful creation realized as accurately as possible. Please, repectfully let's be sure we get it right this time.
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Here are the best images I have of Glory's Goddess "Athene" Figurehead. The first is from a Magazine article about the Shipcarver's work. On the bottom it states her height as being 90". Second is from Time-Life which depicts her floating against a blue background. Third is a small image from a little pamphlet, possibly about India House itself. Fourth is from a fascinating children's book which has the sole image I've found which depicts Glory's figurehead from the right side. Look closely and you can see what was probably original gold trim when she was first launched. These are the sources I've been relying on in my efforts to capture her true beauty.
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rwiederrich Rob, once again, thank you again for your very generous gift. Boy I hate throw water on another man's work, especially an experienced draughtsman but here goes. The Bow and Stern as depicted just don't match what I see in the various paintings and the 1900s broadside photo or even the most recent discovery that we shared in this forum. First painting is by Samuel Walters, widely reputed as being one of Britain's finest nautical illustrators, meticulous in his accurate depictions of every detail of sailing vessels in the minutest details. His glorious painting, featured on Michael Mjelde's first 1970s book, shows a more pronounced Bow than either the first endpaper or this latest effort. Look closely you'll see he has included the Naval Hood as well as the Carved Arch beneath and her white figurehead. Second oil painting is by Charles Robert Patterson, one of America's finest sailor marine artists. Just like Walters' work, Patterson is renowned for his accurate Ship's portrayals. It's remarkable how consistent these two artists are in their depictions of the exact same vessel "Glory of the Seas." Third is a rare photo of Glory's Stern while she's being towed to Alaska. Her stern looks much lighter than how it's depicted in the newest lines plan. Finally is the first large illustration I did myself, maybe 5 or 6 years ago. This is a poorly lit image. I include it because if you look closely there's a graph inside the Hull. I used every specific measurement taken from a reproduction of a contemporary account, probably Robert Duncan McLean, Boston Daily Atlas, which is available in one of Michael Mjelde's publications. I realize I'm not a professional nautical draughtsman but as I've said before, I can clearly see what's in front of my eyes. For instance, the latest image of Glory grounded also suffers from what I've labeled "perspective distortion." While it's a good broadside picture, old "Glory" is clearly listing to Port. Adding to distortion is the location of the photographer who's far below her waterline. Both of these issues exaggerate shortening of the bow and thickening of the stern. Perhaps the one that is clearly the most accurate of Glory's Hull is the Starboard Broadside when she's docked at San Pedro, which I've shared with this group already. When you consider that her figurehead is 7 1/2 feet, she's apparently projecting about 15' from the Bow. I've included a close up of her Bow. Compare it to the new revised Bow. At least to me, they still don't match. Again, I absolutely don't mean any disrespect to the hard work of another man but my fealty is to Donald McKay's impressive creation and this still doesn't match what I see.
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As for locating the missing 1st Glory model, if you can locate the name of the buyer, it should be possible to get probate records. All decedants possessions are usually listed and in a will it's also stipulated to whom those artifacts are supposed to go to. Assuming the buyer knew the value of what they had, it should be fairly easy to identify. Then it's a simple matter of contacting the new owner. If that doesn't work, contacting the probate attorney would also be a good start. The attorney can't give out personal info but they can probably pass along a word to the right party to contact you.
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rwiederrich Rob, I'm still stunned that you're being so considerate to me, a fellow Glory fan who you never met before. I'll let you know as soon as I receive it. Please extend my thanks to Michael Mjelde for his courtesy as well. I found the magazine article with the description of Glory's figurehead being 90" tall. When I get home I'll share that with a few others. Even with the limited images available, it's possible to do a very accurate reproduction. Of course at 1:96 she's just shy of an inch tall!
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I doubt that my sleuthing has unearthed anything new but just in case I may have, I'll dig them up and share them here. I learned from a magazine publication that she was 90" tall which is 7 1/2 feet. I'm going to concentrate my efforts on recreating her as well as her impressive gilded carved nautical hoods and gilded carved arch pedestal which she so gracefully resides on. A magnificent vessel deserves her glorious figurehead.
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TheAuthorsDaughter I do hope your younger sister is fully recovered now. Your dad sacrificing a rare artifact to help save her life is a testament to his caring, concern and selflessness. If Mr Mjelde has any additional pics of Glory's lovely Figurehead still residing at the top of the double staircase at the old India House, NYC I would love to see them. The devil's in the details and my goal is to be as painstakingly accurate as possible.
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rwiederrich Rob, that is just so thoughtful of you! As per your instructions, I sent you a PM (at least I hope that's what it was). This is so exciting, I never expected it. Thank you, thank you, thank you! Your interactions with Arina and her Renaissance Man dad Michael Mjelde have inspired me so powerfully. After we conclude our work on McKay's magnificent last Medium Clipper, I plan on furthering my studies on Donald's other wonderful vessels, starting with his initial effort, Extreme Clipper "Staghound." Ultimately, I want to write to the Peabody-Essex Museum, Salem, MA. According to Richard McKay's book on all of his Cousin's ships, there is a "treasure trove" of illustrations that Donald personally sketched in anticipation of a long, lost book that was never published. Apparently Donald McKay was intending to bring the published Manuscript with him on a European tour to develop more business for his then struggling Boston Shipyard. Twin Hulls of "Chariot of Fame and Star of Empire" are just one example of roughly 100 similar sketches sent to the Peabody Museum. Wouldn't it be wonderful if someone finally finished Donald McKay's book???
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TheAuthorsDaughter Arina. on behalf of our entire group, I want to express my deep appreciation to you for your efforts to coordinate a meeting with your dad and Rob. Your father's two books have been such an inspiration to me personally for decades. Like Rob, my favorite ship's mechanic has always been Donald McKay, Scottish Immigrant and later American citizen. Besides patiently reconstructing Glory's lines it has been a personal goal to capture her lovely carvings and magnificent ship's figurehead Goddess 'Athene.' I've attached a quick sketch of her done a few years ago while at work, to give you an idea of my progress. If at all possible, I would love an opportunity to correspond with your dad about his incredible research on Glory.
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Rob, Thank you so much for sharing this amazing visit with Arina, theauthor'sdaughter and her dad, Michael Mjelde, the inspiring nautical historian and author himself! To say that I'm green with envy is an understatement. However, I can't think of anyone more deserving of this honor then you. It must have felt like an almost out of the body experience to meet with the two of them for several hours. The balsa wood creation of the modeler who created Glory's lines 20 years ago is a lovely piece of work. My hope is that you took many more pictures of her. Perspective distortion aside, she is a magnificent piece. Then to discover that Mr. Mjelde has yet a third manuscript ready to be published with a more accurate reproduction of Glory's lines to be included is quite an exciting revelation too. I noticed that Glory's wonderful Goddess "Athene" and her magnificent carvings are missing on Mr. Mjelde's impressive large scale model. Besides doing as much possible to accurately reconstruct her Hull lines, I've spent the last decade carefully recreating Glory's Figurehead (widely recognized as being the epitome of the ship carver's art) utilizing limited images available. If there's any way I can make a contribution just to that area of Glory's reconstruction, it would be my honor. Finally, please let us know how we can secure advanced, hopefully autographed copies of book 3 and as large a scale sail plan of Glory's new reconstruction once available. Thanks again for sharing this wonderful development. Meanwhile this has given me further inspiration to continue with the seemingly endless pursuit of perfection of a large scale accurate plan of my own.
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I want to belatedly wish everyone a safe Happy New Year 2021. For the first time in decades, I slept through New Year's Eve. It's been a challenging year and our family was just too tired to stay up. I hope everyone had a safe and restful New Year's day holiday.
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Druxey, Rob, Keith and Banyan thanks guys for the encouraging words for healing. I appreciate it more than mere words can express. Rob, you may already know this but just in case, I discovered that Glory's underwater Hull was sheathed up to 22 feet. I also learned that her individual strakes were not 1 foot, like I first thought but 6 1/2". That puts her upper Hull at the Starboard Hull Main Dock closer to 17 feet. 9 strakes just below her Dock equal 4' 10 1/2", her Dock height at 4 strakes equal 2' 2" and 7 strakes above are 3' 9 1/2". Total height up to Main Rail are 10' 10". Main Rail height is 5' and her Monkey Rail is 1' 6" added to that. Combined with height below Sheer Rail, this brings her Hull height to 17' 4". When combined with 22' lower Hull this brings her revised total to 39' 4". I'm still trying to get accurate dimensions for Sheer Rail, Main Rail and Monkey Rail. I think 6" might be accurate, which would add another 1' 6" to her total Hull bringing her up to 40' 10".
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Rob, Your Glory of the Seas hull is looking quite beautiful. As usual, your construction pace is breathtaking. I have to admit too, I've never seen such a unique approach to miniature Ship building before Unfortunately I've been sidelined with a serious illness. For the last month, I've suffered from mysterious stomach pains, which I attributed to a stomach cold. Last week it all came to a head when out of nowhere I had gut wrenching gas pains. My wife rushed me to the ER. Two hours after fortunately testing negative for Covid-19, I was immediately rushed directly into the OR. There they performed laparoscopic gall bladder surgery. I'm slowly getting better but it's been a rough road. This has severely impacted my ability to contribute to a revised Hull design, my apologies for the delay. I'll try to make up for this when I'm better.
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