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ClipperFan
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Rob while you're doing that, might I suggest using the 22' distance from keel to waterline to measure height above to get that dimension too? It can also be confirmed by using her 90" figurehead as a 2nd reference.- 3,560 replies
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Rob, that's excellent news! Perhaps our member Tony Hunt can get this info to Ron Haug quicker, since he lives nearby, as he just told us. Our images can easily be converted to pdf files and emailed to him. He can then bring his laptop to a local printer and deliver them to mr Haug. What do you think?
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Rob, It occurred to me that I didn't answer your question about very precise angles you've accomplished by drawing digital plot lines directly onto the image. The parabaloid is a possible effect of drawing a circle on an angle due to perspective compensation. If you drew a separate circle on the 90 degree angle, my guess is it wouldn't match Glory's curved Bow. Completing the arc to a full circle and overlaying the rest of a box around it, I believe you'd get your answer, that it's actually a circle on an angle. That would mean Glory's bow is the 57 degree section of a circle. Another fascinating development is that this circle actually extends right to the foot of her figurehead, instead of straightening out, which I initially thought. Compare her forlorn Bow sans figurehead in later a broadside image, it confirms that design feature. I think we can also now feel confident that Glory's underwater Bow profile is not straight but more accurately a -7 degree minimally bowed line to her keel. I believe we may have unearthed a key component in being able to finally arrive at Glory's true form.
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Attempt to attach a pdf file was blocked. Simply typing in the url address failed too. If given an accurate e-mail address, this will work. I have successfully sent many pdf files to my local print shop to enlarge images as well as print those images in larger formats up to Ledger size not supported by my in home printer.
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Tony Hunt, Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're volunteering to be Michael Mjelde's and this group's "digital mailman" so to speak. Theoretically, we should be able to attach pdf files to this site. You can then bring them to Ron Haug (from what I've read, Australia is pretty much Coronavirus free compared to the petri dish that is America). Here's a trial run. See if you can open this pdf file. It's "In Bound from Bellingham, 'Glory of the Seas' at San Pedro, 1907" 20180920_184241.jpg.pdf
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Rob, This view demonstrates how sharp Glory's entrance really was. It explains how she was able to complete a very credible 96 day passage from New York to San Francisco. Her extreme list to Port is clearly visible. A factor which has to be taken into consideration when observing her beached from Starboard Broadside viewpoint.
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Arina, I sent an email to your dad and will let you know his reply. Thanks again for both of your generosity!
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TheAuthorsDaughter Arina please thank your dad for me, on his gracious willingness to share his contact info with us. FYI since to me at least this is the best broadside view of her intact Hull, today I emailed the research team at Puget Sound Maritime Hstorical Society to get specifics on how to secure a better copy of "Glory of the Seas" at San Pedro, 1907, PSMHS No 1028-5
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Rob, Great mathematical work! So it appears that starting just below the 2nd Bobstay Chain, Glory's Bow is almost a straight time, with just the most imperceptible curve forward, down to her keel at -7 degrees of vertical. It should be possible to accurately calculate length of her Naval Hoods from her Bow, based on the fact we know her Goddess Figurehead is 90" using angle of inclination. By carefully reconstructing these dimensions, it should be possible to confidently rebuild her dimensions, leading to a very accurate Hull.
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Rob, Thanks for the excerpt of Michael Mjelde's email to you. It's amazing, he started researching Glory about 64 years ago! That's a lifetime of dedication to this unique vessel. Just imagine the documents that must be in his posession. Maybe someday he'll open a museum of his own. He mentioned that Ron Haug has done work on other McKay Clippers. Since Ron's from Down Under, an educated guess would be those vessels which served Oz "Lightning" "James Baines" "Champion of the Seas" and "Donald McKay." Possibly also "City of Adelaide" currently under restoration and "Red Jacket" which also brought Immigrants to Australia. It would be immensely enjoyable to see Ron's work on other Clippers but for now, I'm going to keep focused on getting "Glory of the Seas" right, once and for all. While Mr Mjelde is absolutely right that artist's works are subjective, to the degree we can compensate for perspective distortion, photographic evidence is more reliable. I agree too Rob, that her gunwales are much higher than 6 1/2' based on interior Main Deck level photo. Adding in 3 moldings 6" each brings that height to 8'. 6" molding below 5' Main deck wall 6" molding above, 18" Monkey Rail with 6" molding on top. I cropped the Alaskan Inlet image, brightened it up a little to reveal Glory's details and compared it to original. Then to give better comparison to the San Pedro shot, the last image is reversed. Prow and Stern are more clearly visible but she's stern down making her Bow angle appear more verticle. Adjusting her position to level would correct this. Additional factory structures unfortunately mar her original graceful sheer.
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Rob, Thanks for the excerpt of Michael Mjelde's email to you. It's amazing, he started researching Glory about 64 years ago! That's a lifetime of dedication to this unique vessel. Just imagine the documents that must be in his posession. Maybe someday he'll open a museum of his own. He mentioned that Ron Haug has done work on other McKay Clippers. Since Ron's from Down Under, an educated guess would be those vessels which served Oz "Lightning" "James Baines" "Champion of the Seas" and "Donald McKay." Possibly also "City of Adelaide" currently under restoration and "Red Jacket" which also brought Immigrants to Australia. It would be immensely enjoyable to see Ron's work on other Clippers but for now, I'm going to keep focused on getting "Glory of the Seas" right, once and for all. While Mr Mjelde is absolutely right that artist's works are subjective, to the degree we can compensate for perspective distortion, photographic evidence is more reliable. I agree too Rob, that her gunwales are much higher than 6 1/2' based on interior Main Deck level photo. Adding in 3 moldings 6" each brings that height to 8'. 6" molding below 5' Main deck wall 6" molding above, 18" Monkey Rail with 6" molding on top.
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"Conquerors of Cape Horn, Clippers Glory of the Seas with Young America in Background. 1879" Carl G Evers, American Artist One of my favorite depictions of Glory, very atmospheric showing both vessels fully laden plowing through heavy seas.
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"Glory of the Seas off Fort Mason" & "Glory of the Seas off the Farralon Islands, 1912" both by American Artist William A Coulter It's clearly apparent from the paintings of both contemporary artist who were able to view this Clipper Ship in person that she had a very deep Hull, much deeper than later Maine built deepwater "Down Easters." "The American Clipper Glory of the Seas" Henry Scott, British Artist
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"Glory of the Seas off Fort Mason" & "Glory of the Seas off the Farralon Islands, 1912" both by American Artist William A Coulter It's clearly apparent from the paintings of both contemporary artist who were able to view this Clipper Ship in person that she had a very deep Hull, much deeper than later Maine built deepwater "Down Easters."
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The American Clipper "Glory of the Seas" off of the South Stack, Anglessey" British Artist Charles J Waldron Originally in posession of one of the owners of the Clipper Ship. For accuracy, not one of my favorites, ironically due to the Bow being too elongated, Bowsprit steeve to low. She's depicted as originally launched, before her Wheelhouse was lenghtened.
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TheAuthorsDaughter Arina, it occured to me that the sole image of Glory's Starboard Broadside on level viewpoint "Glory of the Seas at San Pedro dock 1907" is from 'Tall Ships on Puget Sound' published Nov 7, 2007. I made a copy of the page from the book I bought years ago and shared in on this site for personal research only, not to make a profit. What I don't know is this. Since your dad is a published author, is it a copyright infringement to share this with our friend in Australia? If so, there are lots of copies of this book available for roughly $5.00. One could be bought and sent to him.
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What is it with Donald McKay and fires anyway? His first Extreme Clipper "Staghound" burnt to the waterline, the same fate happened to two of the four James Baines Australian line Clippers "Lightning" and his namesake "James Baines." There was the horrific fiery loss of "Ocean Monarch" a magnificent Packet Ship. Poor "Great Republic" herself didn't ignite but sparks from a nearby bakery lit her up. She burned to the waterline and finally was scuttled to extinguish the flames. Although famous Captain NB Palmer salvaged her, due to intense fire damage, she was relaunched basically as a razee, with her 4th deck entirely removed and her once impressive rig greatly reduced in size. In Richard McKay's book, there's a tale of the tragic fate of almost all of Donald McKay's Builder's models. It's related, I think by his son who submitted his authentic half Hull of "Staghound" to a Boston Maritime Museum. He states that it was personally constructed using precise dimensions, taken from loft lines, as the vessel was being built. Apparently Donald used his priceless models as raw fuel kindling to stay warm during the cold winters in rural Massachusetts. All lost to fire. Now we learn that even historic notes themselves have also perished in.... fire, what else?
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druxey Now we're talking scientific precision! I took a compass to the image on my phone and it appears to be a 5 degree incline backwards. Also it does appear that while below the waterline, she appears arrow straight, it's not exactly, as the edge curves forward ever so minutely. I've also read that Glory's Hull was sheathed with yellow metal up to 22'. Knowing that fact, we can measure her height above the waterline. My phone is too small to accurately calculate this but visually it appears that her dimensions above the waterline are slightly more than below. My estimate from Keel to Monkeyrail is close to 50'. Her measurements at Starboard loading port can be calculated by counting strakes, which have been published as being 6 1/2" each. Unless anybody else has a more accurate count, this is the number found from a clear enough image of Glory on the ways: waterline to bottom of port 9 strakes, 58 1/2", side of port 4 strakes, 26" ; port to main deck lower molding 7 strakes, 45 1/2" total= 130" or 10.83' probably 11'. main deck rail height is 5', monkey rail above that is 18", 1 1/2'. I don't know if three 6" moldings (lower main, upper main and monkey rail) add to height or not, excluding them she's 17 1/2' above waterline. Counting depth for moldings she's 19'. Combined with a 22' waterline below that comes to either 39 1/2' or 41' at her Starboard loading dock.
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It's possible this scene shows her with royals fiddled, either because the weather is calm and quiet or because she's just beginning her long tow from Washington to Alaska and they haven't been lowered yet. Obviously scenes of Glory before that Mizzen monstrosity were earlier in her career. Her conversion to become a floating Salmon canning factory extended her years of service. While it was an innovative first, sadly it led to her ultimate doom. When Boston merchants were considering the costs to transform her back to McKay's original Clipper Ship configuration, it was added expense to remove all of the factory processing modifications that made them conclude it was too expensive to save her.....
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I hated to see that mizzen helm house, it disfigured the masts and yards so poorly. It signifies to me how much the owners disrespected her Clipper Ship lineage. From a coldly practical, functional viewpoint, I'm sure it was a benefit to the helmsman but God what an awful sight!
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Rob, What a great catch on the arc of the Cutwater being a section of a circle! I always sensed it was something like that but just couldn't quite see it so clearly until you highlighted it just now. It's also clear that her prow below the waterline isn't verticle but more of a slight incline back. It should be possible to extrapolate that precise degree on a compass setting. Any idea what that is? In his day, Donald McKay was reverently referred to as a Marine Mechanic by Duncan McLean of the Boston Daily Atlas. All of his vessels were scientifically laid out according to the latest hydrodynamic principles available and Donald was famous as an innovator. For example, British Ship builders were so uncomfortable with the radical Bow of the "Lightning" that they tacked on additional cladding to fix what they considered to be a flaw in his design! This obviously infuriated Mr. McKay. Fortunately, their awkward addition couldn't last long, as waves washed it all off. "Lightning" then proceeded to shatter records on her journeys from England to Australia. She became famous as one of the fastest vessels on that route. As for our desire to complete this project correctly, after a decades long "relentless pursuit of perfection" I know we all can afford to be patient. However, there's Mr. Mjelde's looming deadline to consider. From your meeting that sounds like it's coming up fairly soon. Didn't you say that the manuscript for his third publication is already complete? So, I'm going to redouble my efforts to get this done at the full scale we originally discussed. Meanwhile, I don't suppose Mr. Mjelde or Arina TheAuthorsDaughter gave you any idea when the final publishing deadline for his third book would be? My other concern is not wanting to insult Ron Haug's work. But if it comes to a choice between that and seeing yet another inaccurate lines plan, what else do you think we should do? Do you think there's enough time to collaborate with Ron, to show him our research? I've got to believe that everyone wants to be faithful to Mr. McKay's genuine article. To all of us who love Donald's Clipper Ships, even Medium Clippers, it's important to get it right. My sense is, just like the "Great Republic" was a pioneer of the great four masted Barks which followed years later, "Glory of the Seas" wasn't quite a 'Down Easter' but was a definite precursor to them. We have to continue to make as strong as possible a case in defense of Donald McKay's unique creation. Don't we owe it to his memory? After all this time, it would be a shame to see yet another flawed lines plan published, when there now appears to be plenty of visible evidence to contradict it.
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