AON

2011-09-18: The planking in the hold was also completed.

Hexnut
Just reread your suggestions and compared to what Don did (see posting in Scantlings forum)
I will have to give this a try and see if it resolves my SW conflicts for those two stations
Alan

Hexnut,
 
The purpose of lofting at this early time was to see if the hull faired well with the dimensions I took off an electronic image ... paper stretch and all. A friend had shown me exactly how much stretch could be experienced in 200+ old drawings!
 
My intention is to create my templates for my build in CAD from the 3D model.  This way everything should fit like a glove (if my wood working skills are up to the task).  I do not intend to 100% create a completed 3D ship model... just as much as I need ... and I suspect I will continue draughting through the physical build as I discover I need more.
 
After having been recently schooled in scantlings     I have considerable work ahead of me to check my measurements to that of Steels and then possibly to the build contract(s).
 
I just received my quote (50 pounds sterling) and thumb nail image for a framing drawing of HMS Elephant from NMM and having validated it as what I want I will be ordering it tomorrow after they send me the form.
From this I will be better able to complete framing modelling, knowing which frames extend to where and how.
 
I also found out today that electronic images of the ship build contracts (HMS Bellerophon and Elephant) are outrageously expensive and so will be ordering the photocopies at 21.28 pounds sterling each.
 
Hope you and others stick around as I am sure I will need some direction as I proceed.
Alan

Hexnut,
 
The purpose of lofting at this early time was to see if the hull faired well with the dimensions I took off an electronic image ... paper stretch and all. A friend had shown me exactly how much stretch could be experienced in 200+ old drawings!
 
My intention is to create my templates for my build in CAD from the 3D model.  This way everything should fit like a glove (if my wood working skills are up to the task).  I do not intend to 100% create a completed 3D ship model... just as much as I need ... and I suspect I will continue draughting through the physical build as I discover I need more.
 
After having been recently schooled in scantlings     I have considerable work ahead of me to check my measurements to that of Steels and then possibly to the build contract(s).
 
I just received my quote (50 pounds sterling) and thumb nail image for a framing drawing of HMS Elephant from NMM and having validated it as what I want I will be ordering it tomorrow after they send me the form.
From this I will be better able to complete framing modelling, knowing which frames extend to where and how.
 
I also found out today that electronic images of the ship build contracts (HMS Bellerophon and Elephant) are outrageously expensive and so will be ordering the photocopies at 21.28 pounds sterling each.
 
Hope you and others stick around as I am sure I will need some direction as I proceed.
Alan

Minor progress...
 
I moved all my stations and Keel down so relevant dimensions are off the base line of the Sheer Plan not the underside of the keel.
This makes all scantlings (dimensions) off Steels tables relate directly to my dimensions.
 
I then attempted to loft the features and had three problems
1) my computer kept crashing
2) the lines off the stern plan (plane) caused major defects due to its extreme references not relating directly to the next fuller section.
3) similar issue with the bow end Station Y except it caused a major inwards fold to appear between Stations 10 and 12
 
This was fixed by doing small groups of 4 stations at a time, rebuilding and saving the file before going to the next group.
I also did not include the Stern Plan nor Station Y
I also did my loft feature as a solid as opposed to a thin skin as was done by a member in an earlier posting under Scantlings.
 
There are a few ripples revealing themselves on my hull that will need some attention (particularly at station 28).
I will also be comparing the tables from Steels to my dimensions and making some adjustments.
 
A lot of work ahead ... and still waiting on some word from NMM for a frame drawing of HMS Elephant and build contracts for it and the Bellerophon.
 
Until next time.
Alan

Minor progress...
 
I moved all my stations and Keel down so relevant dimensions are off the base line of the Sheer Plan not the underside of the keel.
This makes all scantlings (dimensions) off Steels tables relate directly to my dimensions.
 
I then attempted to loft the features and had three problems
1) my computer kept crashing
2) the lines off the stern plan (plane) caused major defects due to its extreme references not relating directly to the next fuller section.
3) similar issue with the bow end Station Y except it caused a major inwards fold to appear between Stations 10 and 12
 
This was fixed by doing small groups of 4 stations at a time, rebuilding and saving the file before going to the next group.
I also did not include the Stern Plan nor Station Y
I also did my loft feature as a solid as opposed to a thin skin as was done by a member in an earlier posting under Scantlings.
 
There are a few ripples revealing themselves on my hull that will need some attention (particularly at station 28).
I will also be comparing the tables from Steels to my dimensions and making some adjustments.
 
A lot of work ahead ... and still waiting on some word from NMM for a frame drawing of HMS Elephant and build contracts for it and the Bellerophon.
 
Until next time.
Alan

Minor progress...
 
I moved all my stations and Keel down so relevant dimensions are off the base line of the Sheer Plan not the underside of the keel.
This makes all scantlings (dimensions) off Steels tables relate directly to my dimensions.
 
I then attempted to loft the features and had three problems
1) my computer kept crashing
2) the lines off the stern plan (plane) caused major defects due to its extreme references not relating directly to the next fuller section.
3) similar issue with the bow end Station Y except it caused a major inwards fold to appear between Stations 10 and 12
 
This was fixed by doing small groups of 4 stations at a time, rebuilding and saving the file before going to the next group.
I also did not include the Stern Plan nor Station Y
I also did my loft feature as a solid as opposed to a thin skin as was done by a member in an earlier posting under Scantlings.
 
There are a few ripples revealing themselves on my hull that will need some attention (particularly at station 28).
I will also be comparing the tables from Steels to my dimensions and making some adjustments.
 
A lot of work ahead ... and still waiting on some word from NMM for a frame drawing of HMS Elephant and build contracts for it and the Bellerophon.
 
Until next time.
Alan

Christian,
 
I agree with druxey that it is easiest to cut the keel rabbet before framing.  The floor timbers will interfere with the v-gouge.  However, I believe the rabbet can be successfully formed after framing with a scraper like the one below.
 

 
On Young America there is no hogg on the keel so forming the complete rabbet leaves very fragile feathered edges on the upper corners.  I was afraid these would be damaged in later construction, so I only partially cut the rabbet (using this tool) before framing, then went back after framing with the scraper to finish the job.  The scraper rides on the bottom of the keel and needs to be made to clear the floor timbers - like the one in the picture.  I believe this method could be used to form the rabbet after framing.
 
Ed

My short journey (so far) with The Shipwrights Vade Mecum
 
Started with a quick browse and was lost.  
Came back to it fresh and took my time… a dim light illuminated.  
Came back yet a third time and opened a second copy in another window and kept it on the Glossary (definitions of words) section. This made unraveling some of the words and phrases a bit quicker and so easier to digest.  
 
What have I learnt so far is mind boggling!
 
I know why the body is shaped the way it is: Length and breadth, fitting the guns, carry more sail, reduce water resistance, stability, stiffness, speed, steering, preventing rolling and pitching and simply looking damn good.
(I enjoyed this section so much I honestly wished it didn't end)
 
I learned why the 74 gun ships and the single deck 44 gun ships were the best at what they did and considered near perfect.
 
Plans and Lines: I have quite a bit better understanding of most of the lines.  The red lines in the body plan are the diagonals … and what they represent.  I know what the green line in the sheer means (and that my plans don’t seem to have it)
 
I know about flats and dead rising and rising of the floor.
I also learnt about water coming in through the rudder hole (helm port)!
 
I learnt a lot of terms and names that some are understood but most are still a bit of a mystery so I need to go back for a fourth, fifth, sixth… reading until I get it.  The “Rosetta Stone” plates would have been an invaluable aid!
 
And the tables… OMG!  
 
In short this has been one fantastic ride so far.  Thanks to the forum and members who steered me to it.
I highly recommend any and all other beginners out there should take this journey. 
 

More of my work

more

double-sided final checks on the imitation keel curved

built in stages

more

Thank you all for your comments and likes!
 
DRUXEY: image below is from the sheer plan at frame -0- and shows what I took to be every other timber sectioned on the plan showing the Siding (width) and Moulding (height) so I could get the dimensions.  Please steer me back on course if I am drifting. I haven't any references that suggest otherwise.  What I do have suggest all frames were full with joints staggered (I was going to do one of these next to show this) and place face to face making a solid hull.
 
My confession: I thought I knew more about ship's construction than I find I actually do (the rude awakening) and the learning curve is steep... but I love a challenge!
 
Wacko Joe: image below shows the 3 planes used (always have a minimum of three) but everything was drawn on the one and extruded from it.
 
If anyone sees I am doing anything wrong please let me know and send me an image if possible for reference.
Alan

SKETCHING FRAME  –0-
  1. Copy the original plan sketch out and rename FRAME –0- 2. Remove all other Planes and Frames not relating to –0- 3. Measure the deck levels off the original plan and add lines to the Frame drawing to represent the levels   NOTE: all deck levels should have been drawn onto the Sheer Plan already to assure they shape/blend properly but I jumped ahead on this one because I needed to do something different at this moment.  As I will start from Station –O- when I do this I should be okay with this frame.   4. Measure the frame thickness at the deck levels at Frame –O- and add points to the Frame drawing to represent these thickness 5. Draw a spline line for the inside of the frame joining the few points 6. Add a series of new spline points to the spline and adjust them to reshape the inner shape of the frame 7. Sketch in the Deadwood on top of the keel 8. Sketch in Futtock Lines (where the frame joints will be).   These are done “by eye” guessing where the best break would be in a length of timber due to change in grain direction.   9. Layout the Scarph (scarf?) Chock, Hooked or Plain Scarf Joints.   Using the rules stated on pages 29 and 30 of “The Elements of Wood Ship Construction” by Curtis 1919 (length not less than 6 times the depth) I could not fit a plain or hooked scarf joint anywhere along the curved sections of the frame as the material became too thin.  These type joints seem to be meant to be used on less curved sections. Therefore I used the Scarph (scarf?) joint as referenced in "Historic Ship Models" by Wolfram Zu Mondfeld (pg 78) and "A Ship Model Makers Manual" by John Bowen (pg 77).   (Thank you yet again for the books!)   10. Copy the file out and rename it TEMPLATE Frame -0- and change all lines to be construction lines.  Use this template to begin all individual models for frame -0- 11. Copy the file out again and rename it CROSS CHOCK.  Change all cross chock lines to object lines. Add points on the curved lines and draw a splined object line over it.  Fully dimension/define the object lines and extrude the shape to complete the model of the Cross Chock.   (Fully define means to lock each point and line in position so it cannot accidentally float away in the future and create havoc and total chaos).   12. Repeat for all Butt Chocks and then for all Futtocks. 13. Assemble Frame –O- 3D model. 

Sorry!
 
A picture is worth a thousand words.... this should be better than my trying to explain it in just words.  
I think they must have made them with an angled face but I do not know for certain.
 
Alan

Making some progress.
 
BODY PLAN LAYOUTS
I needed to delete the reference points in all underlying planes (Station or Buttock Lines) because they showed through to the plane (station) I was working on and it was confusing.  I had to go back and clear up “dangling” errors as I had located my water lines to them.   Vertical and horizontal dimensions added to the water lines fixed this.
 
Alan

I completed the finicky tweaking of all points on all section lines.
Had to make compromises, blending well and looking aesthetically pleasing won out over clashing dimensions.
 
This is the last batch of section line development sketches.
I am going to model section -0- frame because I need to do something different before I go back to more sketches... I am certain many following may be getting as bored as I am at the moment (plus my head hurts!).  
 
I think the momentary change will recharge my batteries!         
 
Alan

Thanks every one. Seems I have been a little distracted with other things, such as life in general and figure I needed to add another up date. This time its with the bulkheads in the hold. There was a total of only four in Montagu hold starting with the bulkhead that separated the magazine. Going aft one runs in to the bulkhead that enclosed the front part of the spirt room, followed by the fish room and finally the bread room. Wish I had installed some barrels in the hold along with some pig iron and gravel that they would of used to steady the ship. One item that one should be able to make out is the pillars underneath each of the orlop beams. Do hope you enjoy the photos.
Gary


 
 

Hi Ruslan. Your very welcome. I would say that that sounds about right sir. Have been looking for more informatio on it but have not as of yet come up with much.
 
Hi Folks. Here is another update of Montagu hold this time showing her well, along with the pump intakes and shot lockers which was attach to the well. The well was built on the work bench and then installed in to the hold it self. You will also noticed that the floor riders are finished at this time. Another item you will noticed is the pump tubes that are resting on top of the deck beams. They were made of walnut and are still in their square state. The pillar's in the hold are also made of walnut which gives a little bit more of a color to the parts in her hold, with out over powering the other items.  Hope you enjoy the photo's. Gary

Thanks every one. As Ed stated, am just glad to have the photo's to repost the log. I would really be in tears if I lost them. Any way here is another up date on Montagu, some thing that you don't see very often unless you are building a ship of the line, Moving past the magazine to the hold we have the floor riders. Timbers that were like the frames, accept they were installed to help strength the hull. The were very interesting to build and install and are made of pear wood. There is a set that help frame in the Ships well on the front and back and will show that when we get to building and installing the well it self. Do hope you enjoy the update, even through its the second time around. If I can find any more for this part of the build will post them. Gary

Figure I would add a few more to the magazine build up. Hope know one mind

Here is a couple more showing this part of her build.



 

Thanks Ben. With the hawse timbers in place, now comes time for the fwd cant frames. As I was looking for photo's to redo the log, came across some that I don't even think I put on the old log. It shows the fitting of the cant frame's but using a jig that Longridge did when he was building his Victory, in his book, the Anatomy of Nelson's Ships. You can see his jig on page 40. Mine is just a little bit different but the credit belongs to him.  Also one thing you will notice is that the hawse timbers have been sanded down and are now  smooth on the inside. With the build up of the cant frames, things were faired as more cant frames were added.The jig also helped me get the bevels right on the cant's them self. What  you can't see on the templates is the markes for the aligning up the placement of the frames them self's.