American sailing warships with no plans or records

[Talos]

Huh, here's an interesting picture I found poking around LOC. This is Sabine and if you look up the full-size (88mb) TIFF, you can clearly see her aft Parrott sticking out of a slightly wider port out the side of the ship. You can also see the bracing for the forward pivot ports on either side of the (double!) cathead. Notice also the gunport covers hinged at the bottom on the stern windows, as well as the window plugs on the last few broadside gunports on the gun deck.

 

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/cwpb.03820/

Edited August 6, 2016 by Talos

[CharlieZardoz]

Nice I didn't realize the quality of the images on LOC are so much higher. Looking at the billethead scrolling comparisons on Sabine vs Santee, they are similar but perhaps a bit different. Is it safe to say scroll work was different of every ship of the time or did sister ships have essentially the same scroll design depending on who commissioned the work?

[Talos]

Yeah, they can be really nice. Notice the forward pivot ports are open in the Sabine picture you show there. And yeah, could be very different. Different builders, different times, etc. They did have different bow designs anyway.

In reference back to the quarter gallery thread we had a while ago, I think I see two half-window plugs on the two aft-most windows on the quarter gallery, instead of just the one center one we normally see. Also the three-pane half-windows fitted in some of the gunports that still have cannons in them!

 

EDIT: Cropped the bit of stern out for a better view here. Tweaked the levels a bit too.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Talos

[CharlieZardoz]

Any closeups of what these half windows might have looked like? Like maybe one discarded on the gun deck during a removal? I imagine these were there to add light to the gun deck during periods where the cannons were not in use. Also to keep out the cold in winter? I love that you can see stern detail on the Sabine in that one really awesome stuff.

Edited August 6, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

I haven't found any yet. Of thse windows, I see three patterns in that picture. The first two on the left have three panes with vertical borders between them and the cannon still filling the port, then one with only two panes and one vertical border. The guns on the other three are removed, maybe turned sideways against the hull, and the window has an almost sunburst pattern to it. They appear to be half-ports too, but the ports on those three windows don't have the cutout on the lower half for the cannon barrel. I can probably draw up some sketches of them if need be. I imagine they were there for those two very reasons too. Those should be the officer cabins, specifically, so it makes sense they would be the ones fitted with windows. Look at the difference in diameter between the cannons on the gun deck and the spar deck. The above are likely 32-pounders, so the bottom are either 8" 63cwt guns or Dahlgrens.

 

You can also see the badge on the quarter gallery and the two half windows on it I was talking about too (the upper two panes on the center and aft windows on the quarter gallery itself)

[Talos]

Another interesting photo, this one from the US Navy Heritage and History Command, Sabine's salvaged billethead. http://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/USN-901000/USN-901319.html

 

 

And another one of Santee's gundeck, from further aft this time.

 

And Santee's captain's cabin.

 

Santee's gundeck looking aft.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Talos

[CharlieZardoz]

See stuff like that makes my day. Ive been thinking of starting a post comprised of salvaged billetheads/stern fittings etc. Since I know alot of them are out there and as far as im concerned those can really make or break a model (some just do generic squigglies or leave them out entirely) I wonder if that sabine billet still exists today.

[Talos]

That would be the I.L. Snow shipyard in Rockland, Maine where Sam Ladley here lives. Best place to start investigating.

[CharlieZardoz]

Oh that cabin is just darling! I've always wondered what the civil war era captain's quarters would have looked like very cozy. BTW here is the stern eagle from the Columbia via "American Figureheads and their carvers".

Edited August 6, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

She was a training ship and not going to go into battle, probably moored for good by the time that was taken, so it's no surprise it's so heavily decorated and furnished.

[CharlieZardoz]

Agreed I'd imagine the little teacups would probably be a pain to nail down, as would the rocking chair

[CharlieZardoz]

Btw here is a sketch/lithograph? of the Richmond and as you stated correctly the gun deck was open.

[Talos]

Yeah, no kidding.

 

Unrelated, a nice shot of Portsmouth and Lancaster in ordinary in 1894, giving a good view of the sloop's stern. Big carving!

 

[CharlieZardoz]

Interesting this is an older image of Portsmouth so I guess they added on the eagle later on

[uss frolick]

Both of the above Portsmouth pictures look like they have square sterns. But she was built with a round one. Curious ...

[Talos]

I almost wonder if it got added around 1876 with the US Centenial that year. Lots of patriotic imagery. That's just a total guess on my part though. Notice they also added two smaller star badges on the back of the quarterdeck, which are blank in Skerrett's drawing.

 

@frolick

Her plans depict her without any quarter galleries at all. If they were added on later (such as when she got the spar deck), it might account for her stern being like that. Albany was the only one of that group to be built with a square stern.

 

EDIT: Just to muddle the waters more, her stern looks pretty round to me here.

 

Edited August 6, 2016 by Talos

[CharlieZardoz]

I suppose she was curved like the Brandywine class. Hartford class was more elliptical

[Talos]

Looking at the plans, the Brandywine-class frigates have a very flat stern with rounded corners. Portsmouth is closer to Constellation. Looking at Germantown again though, with her quarter galleries on, her stern almost looks flat (despite not being so). Explains why she and Portsmouth only have two stern ports and no quarter ports too. The structure of the hull itself looks in between Brandywine and the Hartford style. You can see what I'm talking about with Germantown here.

[CharlieZardoz]

Here's a nice bit of something I just dug up from the LOC it's a drawing of United States bow detail. Says it's around 1813 but fairly nice detailing the original shows the flow of the scrollwork pretty well.

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2012645377/

Edited August 6, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

Hmm, not bad. The railing on that one reminds me of the flow of New York and Philadelphia's draughts. Where they continue unbroken until getting to the bits abaft the cathead. You can see what I mean here in the comparison I did.

[CharlieZardoz]

Well I imagine they changed over time. Those ships were built 1800 to 1812 so probably the same overall design layout as Philadelphia and new york and was standard issue for naval practice. That said the image past the bow seems kind of implied so i imagine its mot that reliable. Also its very likely Chapelle used contemporary images like these to base his reconstructions on.

Edited August 7, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[trippwj]

That would be the I.L. Snow shipyard in Rockland, Maine where Sam Ladley here lives. Best place to start investigating.

 

The shipyard has long been closed.  A good starting point may be the Sail Power & Steam Museum here (located at the site of the former I. L. Snow shipyard).  There may also be some information available here at the Maine Maritime Museum (just down the coast a mite in Bath).  It may also be beneficial to contact the New-York Historical Society for information on the items in the Maritime History Collection PR 100 (see finding aid here). 

[trippwj]

Well I imagine they changed over time. Those ships were built 1800 to 1812 so probably the same overall design layout as Philadelphia and new york and was standard issue for naval practice. That said the image past the bow seems kind of implied so i imagine its mot that reliable. Also its very likely Chapelle used contemporary images like these to base his reconstructions on.

 

I would, in reference to early 19th century US Naval ship design, be careful about using terms like "standard issue" and "standard design".  The US Navy was still far from a bureaucratic beast at the time, and while there was a Naval Constructor (Fox, Doughty, Samuel Humphreys and Henry Eckford during the period in question), it was not until much later that the Chief Naval Constructor really achieved some solid measure of authority.  Each of these designers, responsible for various classes of ships built at the time, had very different design approaches, and the vessels would show the individual bias of the designer.  HOWEVER, the captain also had a great deal of leeway to make cosmetic adjustments within the approved construction budget, so there may be some trends toward commonality, not in design so much as in the taste of the skipper.

[Talos]

Well I imagine they changed over time. Those ships were built 1800 to 1812 so probably the same overall design layout as Philadelphia and new york and was standard issue for naval practice. That said the image past the bow seems kind of implied so i imagine its mot that reliable. Also its very likely Chapelle used contemporary images like these to base his reconstructions on.

 

Certainly changed. For instance, the berthed up bulwarks later in the war. I was just struck by how much it was shaped like those two (which were based on anachronistic drawings by probably a junior naval constructor as practice that featured those rail shapes, but as solid bulwarks). Obviously the whole image past the bow is even more simple than the rest.

 

The shipyard has long been closed.  A good starting point may be the Sail Power & Steam Museum here (located at the site of the former I. L. Snow shipyard).  There may also be some information available here at the Maine Maritime Museum (just down the coast a mite in Bath).  It may also be beneficial to contact the New-York Historical Society for information on the items in the Maritime History Collection PR 100 (see finding aid here). 

 

Yeah, I know. The last Snow died a few years ago too. I was pointing out that the forum member physically lives next to the old site of the shipyard.

 

And now onto the new stuff. First off, this should raise interesting questions on Portsmouth's stern. It's definitely round, but the quarter galleries are faired in completely.

 

 

Portsmouth's gun deck after the spar deck was added on top (she was built open-topped). Three visible Dahlgrens, a Parrott in the back, and a sailor reading a newspaper. I have been finding some amazing Portsmouth pictures.

 

 

 

Being burned to recover her metal in Governer's Island, New York in 1915.

 

 

On the subject of the gunport windows last page. I think Constellation's constellation windows are even crazier. Also she looks amazingly sleek in her late-19th century guise.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Talos

[CharlieZardoz]

Hi Wayne! Yes you are correct. Standard wasn't really a term at that time but I was thinking more in terms of standard function since those parts by the bow would have been what most frigates required at the time before the bulwarks and railings became solid in later designs. Also though the railings from Philadelphia and New York were reconstructed by Chapelle (after the erroneous reconstructions by Henry Allen) so it's likely he took the railing idea from Constitution (and Boston's plans) as a reference? The bow does look a lot like Constituition I must say. And Talos those are some wonderful looking images there. Is it wrong to say I have a thing for boat butts!

Edited August 7, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

Hi Wayne! Yes you are correct. Standard wasn't really a term at that time but I was thinking more in terms of standard function since those parts by the bow would have been what most frigates required at the time before the bulwarks and railings became solid in later designs. Also though the railings from Philadelphia and New York were reconstructed by Chapelle (after the erroneous reconstructions by Henry Allen) so it's likely he took the railing idea from Constitution (and Boston's plans) as a reference? The bow does look a lot like Constituition I must say. And Talos those are some wonderful looking images there. Is it wrong to say I have a thing for boat butts!

 

That really only held through the war years. Once peace reigned again, American ships actually became remarkable alike. Paint became standardized with the white stripe (then later extending the stripe over the bow), Any remaining gingerbread was either removed or painted black, with just a few decorative motifs like stars and eagles. You definitely see in the 1820s-1830s there was a standardization through the navy.

 

Probably from Constitution, as you'll notice Boston's is quite different. I think he really kept the same bulwark lines and just turned them into railings. Don't forget that the original six got extensive rebuilds, with different heads. Just compare the depiction of Constitution and President in my comparison, plus Constitution as she is now.

 

Speaking of Constitution and that picture you link, here's one of her old figureheads.

 

And the infamous Andrew Jackson figurehead that replaced Washington.

 

HMS Macedonian's. This was likely the only major piece of the original frigate to appear in the American rebuild.

 

And Ohio's Hercules figurehead displayed on the side of a highway in New York.

 

Some decoration details from Alabama/New Hampshire/Granite State.

[CharlieZardoz]

I've been considering renaming this topic "American warship research and information gathering" since it seems that is much of what we are doing. It's a joy bringing all of these bits of history together on one source for those to seek out if need be. Here is a few more images from the figureheads book, one shows sketches of the bust for the John Adams along with Macedonian, Independence, Philadelphia and Syren, the other images busts from many of the 74 gun ships. Enjoy!

[Talos]

The Naval Heritage website has a bunch of photos of Delaware's figurehead from your link, both the wooden one and the bronze replica they cast (as well as the physical casting of it!).

 

Continuing the discussion of the 1840s sloop sterns, here's St Marys, circa 1874. She's got the spar deck already, but no quarter galleries. Great look at the quarter ports though.

 

 

EDIT: An interesting detail I noticed on St Marys and Portsmouth both, the rudder chains wrap around the stern.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Talos

[uss frolick]

Talos, where are you finding these incredible images?

[Talos]

The first ones were Library of Congress. The recent ones I've been finding on the Naval History and Heritage Command website. http://www.history.navy.mil/A lot have been uploaded in the past year. All of these pictures I've been posting have been the small thumbnails, the full-size ones are incredible (you can really zoom in). I've been pouring over details on the Santee/Sabine, the various sloops, and steamers like the Hartford and Pensacola the last couple days. They even have one I knew of USS Dale in much higher resolution that makes me want to fix the spar deck I put on her, as well as work on the sloops to get them to this awesome late-19th century look.

 

Here's one of Cumberland in 1860, before the war started.

 

 

Here's one of Santee decked over. I think the aft window really shows the side pivot port for the Parrott.

 

And a great shot of Saratoga. Similar style stern to Portsmouth, but it has additional moldings. Harder to see in this thumbnail, you can zoom in and see it clearly in the fullsize TIFF on the website. In the Portsmouth picture above you can see the same mouldings on the tiny quarter galleries, but they don't extend across her transom. I can also tell in later photos of St Marys from the 1890s that she never got quarter galleries of her own.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2016 by Talos